my top 35 heavyweights of all time

[smasher]

Name some of these black top contenders who were better than the white fighters that Louis was fighting on his way up and during his early years as champion. Just saying "they must have existed" does not prove anything unless you can provide some names and their ranking during the years Louis ducked them.

Have you ever considered that in a segregated 1930's-40's America that up and coming black heavyweights were denied oppurtunities against white opponents? It's not as if blacks were denied oppurtunities in just about every other field during this time. This is a sociological fact.

A quick check of SuzieQ49's list shows 9 white fighters out of his 35 ATG heavyweights. Most of the posters seem to feel this is an excellent list which contains 3/4 black fighters.

Are you suggesting that in Louis's 12 year reign world class black heavyweights just up and vanished?

[butterfly1964]

Yeah, and i think Tyson could beat him too in a few fights. You can't judge a fighter's place in history very high because you love him.

for me it's not about love. it's my honest opinion.

[SuzieQ49]

I'm not dissing Louis' chanmpionship competition, I just think Holmes's is underrated. He beat four men (Berbick, Weaver, Witherspoon, & Smith) who went on to win paper titles and beat good competition. Not to mention Snipes, Cooney, Spoon, & Williams were young up and comers when Holmes outsmarted them. The 80's were loaded with talent, the problem was motivation.

Louis ruled from 1937-1948; but had four years away from serious competition due to his service in WWII. His biggest tests as champion were Farr, Schmeling, Conn, Godoy, Nova, Mauriello (impressive win, btw...loved seing him comeback and turn it around withing 3 minutes), and Walcott.

I think the competition is about even and it could be argued Holmes has a slight edge in that department; but I still rank Louis second and Holmes third because Louis edged out Holmes in high calibre competition in pre-title fights.

louis beat - schmeling, walcott, baer 3 great heavies

in comparison.... holmes only beat 1 great heavy norton



edge in quality- louis






- louis also beat better depth

[Yogi]

Have you ever considered that in a segregated 1930's-40's America that up and coming black heavyweights were denied oppurtunities against white opponents?

One of the top rated Heavyweights of that time, Bob Pastor, would say otherwise, considering he defeated the best of the black Heavyweights from before Louis went off to war...Roscoe Toles, Lem Franklin, and Turkey Thompson.

[SuzieQ49]

I am posting something big right now on the black heavyweights of the 1940s.




bob pastor is the key word here. he beat many of the top black heavyweights of thhe 1940s. also smasher, LOUIS LOST 4 YEARS DUE TO WAR. HAD HE CONTINUED TO FIGHT FROM 1942-46 HE DEFINTLEY WOULD HAVE DEFENDED AGAINST MORE BLACK PEOPLE

[RockyMarcianofan00]

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Sonny Liston
3. George Foreman
4. Joe Frazier
5. Larry Holmes
6. Floyd Patterson
7. Ken Norton
8. Jimmy Ellis
9. Cleveland Williams
10.Zora Folley
11.Jerry Quarry
12.George Chuvalo
13.Ron Lyle
14.Ernie Shavers
15.Henry Cooper
16.Oscar Bonavena
17.Bob Foster
18.Trevor Berbick
19.Brian London
20.Sonny Banks
21.Chuck Wepner
22.Charlie Powell
23.Joe Bugner
24.Archie Moore
25.Jurgen Blin
26.Doug Jones
27.Jimmy Young
28.Billy Daniels
29.Leon Spinks
30.Ernie Terrel
31.Buster Mathis
32.Richard Dunn
33.Jimmy Robinson
34.Alex Miteff
35.Tunney Hunsaker

Marciano's not even in his top 35

besides that i see some good names

[Kid Achilles]

Have you ever considered that in a segregated 1930's-40's America that up and coming black heavyweights were denied oppurtunities against white opponents? It's not as if blacks were denied oppurtunities in just about every other field during this time. This is a sociological fact.

A quick check of SuzieQ49's list shows 9 white fighters out of his 35 ATG heavyweights. Most of the posters seem to feel this is an excellent list which contains 3/4 black fighters.

Are you suggesting that in Louis's 12 year reign world class black heavyweights just up and vanished?

If that was the case (which is debatable until you prove evidence of these top ten worthy black heavyweights) it still isn't Louis's fault as champion. A champion should fight the top ranked contenders in his division. Louis did this, and for the most part he crushed them all. How can you hold it against Louis if there were black fighters out there who were denied opportunities to fight white contenders (and even we're talking about missed opportunities to fight them, not neccesarily beat them) in order to reach him? You can't. It's not as if there were these great black contenders who had proven themselves and Louis was ducking them.

[butterfly1964]

Marciano's not even in his top 35

besides that i see some good names

that was a joke list. read the one after that.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

oh sry
been awhile since i was on the bored so i just skimmed through it

sorry

[smasher]

HE DEFINTLEY WOULD HAVE DEFENDED AGAINST MORE BLACK PEOPLE

Jack Johnson's title reign probably did more harm than good to the black heavyweights that came after him. Joe Louis had a protocol to follow so as not to offend whites and distance himself from Jack Johnson's image. Louis was never to raise his hands and celebrate after defeating a white opponent, he was not to be photographed with a white woman, he was to be portrayed as a family man, and was to be subdued and humble during interviews among other such rules directed by his management.

This was the sign of the times in those days. Imagine the scandal that would have erupted had it become known that Louis had an inter-racial affair with white figure skater Sonji Henning.

Louis was loved because he wasn't Jack Johnson and Ali was hated because he wasn't Joe Louis.

My thread IS NOT a slight on Joe Louis, it is a sign of the times. Louis would not have had the power to choose his opponents during this time. I'm sure Mike Jacobs did that.