my top 35 heavyweights of all time

[SuzieQ49]

Scmeling also beat Louis and did it when he was younger...Max was 32 when Louis stopped him under extraordinary circumstances; but I honestly don't think anyone could have beaten Joe on that night. Baer was pre-title, which I've addressed, and Walcott I think is a little overrated by most. Walcott was 34 like Louis when they fought and most of his career he fought at light heavy and middle, so I'm not so quick to attach the term all-time great heavy to Jersey Joe.

sorry but u dont know what ur talking about KDOGGG...........


- WALCOTT WAS A HEAVYWEIGHT HIS WHOLE CAREER. CHECK HIS RECORD.



- WALCOTT WAS A CHIZZLED 195LB HEAVYWEIGHT HIS WHOLE CAREER! walcott was bigger than schmeling WHO FOUGHT AT 190LB


- the only time walcott ever weighed under 175lb was when he was 16! ali when he was 16 weighed under 170lb!


- walcott top 15 heavyweight of all time, defintley the best louis ever beat. I SEE U NEED TO POINT OUT WALCOTTS AGE? well if u were smart, you would know walcott was a fighter who got better with age. louis on the other hand was past his prime when he beat walcott.

Scmeling also beat Louis and did it when he was younger...Max was 32 when Louis stopped him under extraordinary circumstances;

nice try buddy, schmeling was the same fighter he was 2 years ago since beating joe louis. ever since he beat louis, he dominated his fights showing no signs of aging. schmeling was in his prime in both fights.

[SuzieQ49]

why dont u point out to us that norton was 34 when he fought holmes 15 even rounds and norton would win only 1 of his next 4 fights!

or that shavers was 33 and looked better on film in the early 1970s


or why don't you point how to us how holmes had a habit of beating up on green fighters

carl williams- ONLY 16 pro fights when he fought holmes and was robbed

bonecrusher smith- ONLY 15 pro fights when he fought holmes

marvis frasier- ONLY 10 pro fights when he fought holmes

tim witherspoon- ONLY 15 pro fights when he fought holmes

david bey- ONLY 14 pro fights when he fought holmes


trevor berbick- ONLY 19 pro fights when he fought holmes


osscie osacio- ONLY 13 pro fights when he fought holmes


renaldo snipes- ONLY 22 pro fights when he fought holmes




see how i can spin it around toward holmes?

[smasher]

here are some of the better 1940s black heavyweight contenders

6'2 200lb Elmer Ray- top 50 heavyweight of all time. huge punching boxer-puncher of the 1940s. Elmer Ray ranked # 1 heavyweight contender by Ring Magazine 1946.

5'11 185lb Jimmy Bivins- Hall of famer. bivins was the duration HW champion during the war years. Ranked # 1 heavyweight contender by Ring Magazine 1942-43.

outside of walcott and charles........bivins and ray were the 2 best heavweight contenders of the 1940s

5'9 200lb turkey thompson- big punching top heavyweight contender during the 1940s. Rated # 3 by Ring Magazine in 1942.

6'2 210lb Lem Franklin- big punching top heavyweight contender early 1940s. Rated # 2 contender by Ring Magazine in 1941.

6'4 210lb Harry Bobo- big punching top heavyweight contender early 1940s. Rated # 5 contender by Ring Magazine 1942.

6'2 200lb Roscoe Toles- top heavyweight contender of late 30s/early40s. Toles ranted # 4 contender by Ring Magazine 1942. toles actually fought louis and was knocked out in 6 rounds, but this fight took place in 1935 when roles was just 2-4 and very green.

There were quite a few black fighters that Joe Louis failed to meet during his career, a lot of whom I believe would have given the “Brown Bomber” some quality opposition more so than some of the fighters that he defended the title against. Some that he could have fought in either the 1930s or 1940s are Elmer Ray, Jack Trammell, Leroy Haynes, Jimmy Bivins(in 1940s), Larry Gains, Harry Bobo, Turkey Thompson, Elmer Ray, Unknown Winston, “Tiger” Jack Fox, Roscoe Toles(prime version), Seal Harris(louis sparring partner), Lem Franklin, George Godfrey, Buddy Walker, Curtis Sheppard to name a few of the top guys.

Good job on the legwork SuzieQ49.

It always amazes me when Louis is defended for not fighting certain black opponents with the simple argument that they lost a certain fight or to a certain fighter. Joe's white opponents all had losses and still got title fights. Jack Roper had 40 losses for heaven's sake yet he still got a title fight...

[SuzieQ49]

However, I don't think 32 year old Schmeling and 34 year old Walcott trump 33 year old Norton, Shavers, who stopped Norton in 1, Weaver who goes on to win WBA title, Berbick who goes on to win WBC Title, Snipes & Cooney both in 20's and undefeated, 25 year old Witherspoon..also undefeated, and goest on to win WBC & WBA belts, Smith who goes on to win WBA belt, and young undefeated Williams when Larry was well past his prime at 35.

walcott was in his prime at 34 years old


norton was PAST HIS PRIME at 34 years old





JUST REMEMBER KDOG, its not abot age. a lot of holmes opponent were young, BUT THEY WERE ALSO INEXPERIENCED AND GREEN!

[Yogi]

Some of those guys weren't even in a position to fight Louis during his title reign, nevermind for the title...Godfrey had already retired after finishing his career on the other side of the world. Gains was also finishing his career on the other side of the world and hadn't been a ranked contender since the early 30's. Seal Harris? Come on...he was already retired two years previous, and was earning money as nothing but Louis' sparring partner. Jack Trammell, Leroy Haynes, Unknown Winston...what are we talking about pre-title competition here or what?

Here's Ring Magazine's monthly ranking for Nov of 1941;

Champion: Joe Louis
1: Lou Nova
2: Billy Conn
3: Buddy Baer
4: Lem Franklin*
5: Bob Pastor
6: Abe Simon
7: Melio Bettina
8: Turkey Thompson*
9: Alberto Lovell
10: Arturo Godoy

Louis' had just defeated the #2 contender, Billy Conn (who was #1 at the time of the fight, and was scheduled for a rematch in '42 when he was again the #1 contender after Nova lost) and his next defenses after this ranking came against Lou Nova (#1 contender), Buddy Baer (#3 contender), and Abe Simon (#5 in their annual)...Lem Franklin and Bob Pastor were the two other highly ranked contenders in the title position, and there were talks that whoever won that fight was going to be in position for a title shot at Louis. Without the war, Franklin would've very likely gained a title with a win, but he lost, so it's a moot point.

Bivins gained his #1 position in the 1942 annual after defeating the likes of Mauriello, Savold and especially Pastor in the fall of 1942, which was after Louis had been inducted into the army (in Jan of 42, and his fight with Simon in March was for army relief/benefit, which saw Louis give up his entire purse for the cause) .

Toles gained his high ranking in the 1942 annual rankings by defeated the likes of Lovell & Godoy, but again, those wins came after Louis had already been inducted into the army.

Ditto for Harry Bobo, whose work in 1942 got him rated...specifically a claim to the title according to some states, which he won late in 1942.

Unless these black fighters were enlisted in the army (doubtful, seeing as they were all still active through the war years) and were willing to give away their purses from a championship fight with Louis (which both Louis & Simon did, and Louis & Conn had planned to do later in the year) then they just weren't going to be getting into the ring with Louis in the early months of 1942.

1938 to 1941 is the period you want to be looking at for a possible black challenger to Louis title, not at the very end of 1942, which was basically less than a month short of a full year after Louis had been inducted into the army.

[Da Iceman]

nobody would pay to see two black men fight for the heavyweight championship in the 30's and 40's.

[sleazyfellow]

nobody would pay to see two black men fight for the heavyweight championship in the 30's and 40's.

mayb except for other black ppl...

[SuzieQ49]

Some of those guys weren't even in a position to fight Louis during his title reign, nevermind for the title...Godfrey had already retired after finishing his career on the other side of the world. Gains was also finishing his career on the other side of the world and hadn't been a ranked contender since the early 30's. Seal Harris? Come on...he was already retired two years previous, and was earning money as nothing but Louis' sparring partner. Jack Trammell, Leroy Haynes, Unknown Winston...what are we talking about pre-title competition here or what?

Here's Ring Magazine's monthly ranking for Nov of 1941;

Champion: Joe Louis
1: Lou Nova
2: Billy Conn
3: Buddy Baer
4: Lem Franklin*
5: Bob Pastor
6: Abe Simon
7: Melio Bettina
8: Turkey Thompson*
9: Alberto Lovell
10: Arturo Godoy

Louis' had just defeated the #2 contender, Billy Conn (who was #1 at the time of the fight, and was scheduled for a rematch in '42 when he was again the #1 contender after Nova lost) and his next defenses after this ranking came against Lou Nova (#1 contender), Buddy Baer (#3 contender), and Abe Simon (#5 in their annual)...Lem Franklin and Bob Pastor were the two other highly ranked contenders in the title position, and there were talks that whoever won that fight was going to be in position for a title shot at Louis. Without the war, Franklin would've very likely gained a title with a win, but he lost, so it's a moot point.

Bivins gained his #1 position in the 1942 annual after defeating the likes of Mauriello, Savold and especially Pastor in the fall of 1942, which was after Louis had been inducted into the army (in Jan of 42, and his fight with Simon in March was for army relief/benefit, which saw Louis give up his entire purse for the cause) .

Toles gained his high ranking in the 1942 annual rankings by defeated the likes of Lovell & Godoy, but again, those wins came after Louis had already been inducted into the army.

Ditto for Harry Bobo, whose work in 1942 got him rated...specifically a claim to the title according to some states, which he won late in 1942.

Unless these black fighters were enlisted in the army (doubtful, seeing as they were all still active through the war years) and were willing to give away their purses from a championship fight with Louis (which both Louis & Simon did, and Louis & Conn had planned to do later in the year) then they just weren't going to be getting into the ring with Louis in the early months of 1942.

1938 to 1941 is the period you want to be looking at for a possible black challenger to Louis title, not at the very end of 1942, which was basically less than a month short of a full year after Louis had been inducted into the army.

yogi,

sorry i made you do all that uneeded but still well informed good work. the guys i listed up top were black contenders that louis could have faced anwhere in his career including PRE TITLE.


sorry for the confusion!

[SuzieQ49]

seal harris is a good story. he was louis sparring parnter later on his career. I have clips of him knocking harris out in sparring! harris was a good fighter though. throw his record book right out the window along with all the dives he took during his career!

[SuzieQ49]

the biggest myth about jersey joe walcott is his size. since he came along with charles and moore, people tend to think walcott was the same size. THAT IS NOT THE CASE.

-most of walcotts career he was a chizzled 6' 195lb heavyweight