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Originally posted by butterfly1964
can't ask for miracles lol
i think George Foreman is better then liston anyday, Frazier arguably as well
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well at least he made top 12
can't ask for miracles lol
i think George Foreman is better then liston anyday, Frazier arguably as well -
here are some of the better 1940s black heavyweight contenders
6'2 200lb Elmer Ray- top 50 heavyweight of all time. huge punching boxer-puncher of the 1940s. Elmer Ray ranked # 1 heavyweight contender by Ring Magazine 1946.
5'11 185lb Jimmy Bivins- Hall of famer. bivins was the duration HW champion during the war years. Ranked # 1 heavyweight contender by Ring Magazine 1942-43.
outside of walcott and charles........bivins and ray were the 2 best heavweight contenders of the 1940s
5'9 200lb turkey thompson- big punching top heavyweight contender during the 1940s. Rated # 3 by Ring Magazine in 1942.
6'2 210lb Lem Franklin- big punching top heavyweight contender early 1940s. Rated # 2 contender by Ring Magazine in 1941.
6'4 210lb Harry Bobo- big punching top heavyweight contender early 1940s. Rated # 5 contender by Ring Magazine 1942.
6'2 200lb Roscoe Toles- top heavyweight contender of late 30s/early40s. Toles ranted # 4 contender by Ring Magazine 1942. toles actually fought louis and was knocked out in 6 rounds, but this fight took place in 1935 when roles was just 2-4 and very green.
There were quite a few black fighters that Joe Louis failed to meet during his career, a lot of whom I believe would have given the “Brown Bomber” some quality opposition more so than some of the fighters that he defended the title against. Some that he could have fought in either the 1930s or 1940s are Elmer Ray, Jack Trammell, Leroy Haynes, Jimmy Bivins(in 1940s), Larry Gains, Harry Bobo, Turkey Thompson, Elmer Ray, Unknown Winston, “Tiger” Jack Fox, Roscoe Toles(prime version), Seal Harris(louis sparring partner), Lem Franklin, George Godfrey, Buddy Walker, Curtis Sheppard to name a few of the top guys.
-The stories behind the fights may shed some light on what was going on. Joe took the fight with John Henry Lewis against the wishes of his managment. Jacobs wanted no part of it. They let Louis have his way but it was one of his lowest grossing title defences. After that a black challenger was going to have to establish himself as a serious challenger to get a title fight. As far as I can see the only black challenger who was ranked in the top ten for a prolonged period during Joes pre war career was Turkey Thompson and he was hovering around the lower half of the top ten. After the war Bivins, Ray and Walcott were all serious forces in the division. Of the three Walcott was seen as the least credible challenger and Bivins the most. I beleive that Bivins was to fight Louis after Maurellio but Walcott eliminated him. Elmer Ray was looked on as the obvious replacement but Walcott uncharitably eliminated him as well leaving himself as the mandatory challenger. The rest is history. It is easy to say with the benefit of hindsight that Louis should have fought Bivins and Ray but the timing was never on their sides. They had their stay on top while Louis was in the army and while he was less active in the postwar years.
-the black fighters louis faced pre title were eddie simms and roscoe toles. Roscoe toles was actually a very good contender of the era, but he was green when he fought louis.
Was Louis protected?? certainly, to an extent just like every fighter, but regardless NO ONE OF THAT ERA could beat Joe Louis at the top of his game!
- louis's defense, Louis knocked out bob pastor, who beat a lot of those dangerous avoided top black contenders of the 30s-40s. also Joe Louis beat the best black heavyweight of the 1940s jersey joe walcott. -also one must remember louis e missed 4 years due to war. im sure louis would have fought a lot of these top black heavyweights from 1943-46 had he got the chance.
- guys like buddy baer, tommy farr, bob pastor, abe simon, tony galento, tami mauriello, max schmeling, billy conn, arturo godoy, lou nova these guys were just as good or better than those black heavyweights louis failed to meet.Comment
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NOTE: i am leaving out jersey joe walcott and ezzard since they won titles
top 10 black heavyweight contenders of 1940s
1. Elmer "Violent" Ray 6'2 195lb heavyweight peak 1946
* herbert goldman rates elmer ray in his top 20 heavyweights of all time
- i rate elmer ray in my top 30 heavyweights of all time. ray is a vastly underated heavyweight. he not only had devastaing KO power, he also had solid boxing skills. ray fought out of a crouch bobbin/weavin . ray was in essence a puncher-swarmer a rare breed. Ray also beat both jersey joe walcott and ezzard charles when both were at/near there best.
2. Jimmy Bivins 5'11 187lb heavyweight peak 1945
3. Lee Q Murray 6' 210lb heavyweight peak 1946
4. Turkey Thompson 5'9 205lb heavyweight peak 1943
continued...................Comment
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This is one way of looking at it but it completely ignores the fact that Louis was a patriotic American in a time of war (and a time when patriotism was unanimously looked highly upon) and Ali was completely opposed to the war of his era. Ali refusing the Vietnam war draft was HUGE. Many people disliked him for his mouth (the early 60's were similar to the late 50's and the image of the simple, clean living, and modest athlete was still highly valued) before the war but it was the issue of his stance on Vietnam that had huge consequences towards his public image. That was when people started to really HATE him rather than just find him an amusing and slightly vexing clown.Louis was loved because he wasn't Jack Johnson and Ali was hated because he wasn't Joe Louis.Comment
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continued...............
5. Lem Franklin 6'2 200lb heavyweight peak 1941
6. Roscoe Toles 6'2 205lb heayvweight peak 1942
7. Curtis "hatchetman" Sheppard 5'11 185lb heavyweight peak 1943
8. Harry Bobo 6'4 210lb heavyweight peak 1942
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continued.......................
9. Buddy Walker 5'11 195lb heavyweight peak 1944
- anyone that has a pic that would be great
10. Eddie "dark spoiler" Blunt 6' 220lb heavyweight peak 1941
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Scmeling also beat Louis and did it when he was younger...Max was 32 when Louis stopped him under extraordinary circumstances; but I honestly don't think anyone could have beaten Joe on that night. Baer was pre-title, which I've addressed, and Walcott I think is a little overrated by most. Walcott was 34 like Louis when they fought and most of his career he fought at light heavy and middle, so I'm not so quick to attach the term all-time great heavy to Jersey Joe.Originally posted by SuzieQ49
So, in retrospect, young Louis, as champion, beat Schmeling and Walcott...which is what I referred to: title reign opposistion.
Schmeling, 32, and six years removed from his title reign or best years.
Walcott, 34, 46-11-1 (losing 3 by K.O. and fighting most of his career below heavyweight)
And it can be arued both Walcott and Schmeling beat Louis the first time around. Still, credit to Louis for reversing the tide in the rematch.
However, I don't think 32 year old Schmeling and 34 year old Walcott trump 33 year old Norton, Shavers, who stopped Norton in 1, Weaver who goes on to win WBA title, Berbick who goes on to win WBC Title, Snipes & Cooney both in 20's and undefeated, 25 year old Witherspoon..also undefeated, and goest on to win WBC & WBA belts, Smith who goes on to win WBA belt, and young undefeated Williams when Larry was well past his prime at 35.
Sorry, the scales just don't tip towards Louis if all you use is that version of Schmeling and Walcott. That looks to be far more in Holmes favor if you remove Conn, Farr, Nova, Mauriello, and Godoy...all good challengers....from the equation.
Louis edges out Holmes because of two things, in my book.
1. Pre-title competition
2. The enormous pressure to win the Schmeling fight. Most men crack under that kind of pressure; but Louis excelled. Even though Schmeling was past his best by 38, the event was mind-boggling...which is why Louis is #2 on my list and not #3.Comment
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SuzieQ....just saw your collection of fight photos of Black Contenders from the Louis era. That's impressive as hell, dude. Props!!Comment
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Great stuff SuzieQ. Awesome posts.Comment
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Originally posted by SuzieQ49
tell me why is Tyson so high, he shouldn't be higher than Lewis at allComment
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