Wlad vs Marciano's contenders.

[Ivich]

Al Weill had already lined C.ockell up as Maricano's next opponent before the second Charles bout. Valdes was in Weill's mind up after C.ockell.

Jim Norris, the IBC, wanted Valdes in February or March with C.ockell in June. The order in reverse to Weill's.

Marciano-Charles II was in September. Marciano's nose needed surgery and he only fought when suitable (federal taxes) that's why his next outing wasn't until May of 1955.

During all this hold up on the title front, two significant things happened;

1. Valdes had been passing up good money fights in the chance it was him not C.ockell who got the shot.

2. Moore had started a publicity campaign that found support for a contest between himself and Marciano.

Moore offered to fight Valdes and C.ockell back-to-back on the same night. Box Marciano over 6 for charity. Phoned, mailed the major sport press lauding the merits of the fight and estimated it would make double what Marciano-Charles fights did.

Moore had jumped up the list of challengers by public opinion, Valdes who needed a money fight and validation as next in line agreed to a contest. That's the backdrop to the Valdes-Moore fight which Moore won.

So once Marciano had gotten through C.ockell there was only two options for his September date in New York, Bob Baker or Archie Moore.

Moore got the nod as he had just beaten Valdes and stopped Baker the year before.

Except in 53 Valdes was the number1 contender after beating Charles and taking his no1, spot .
Nino fought 3 times more that year winning them all.
In 54 Valdes fought in March,May, and April, again winning them all before his defeat to Moore.
That was a run of 11 fights without defeat including topping the no1 contender so there was no excuse for him not getting a title shot.
Later in their careers Coc kell and Valdes fought and Coc kell could not manage to last 3 rds.

[QueensburyRules]

Except in 53 Valdes was the number1 contender after beating Charles and taking his no1, spot .
Nino fought 3 times more that year winning them all.
In 54 Valdes fought in March,May, and April, again winning them all before his defeat to Moore.
That was a run of 11 fights without defeat including topping the no1 contender so there was no excuse for him not getting a title shot.
Later in their careers Coc kell and Valdes fought and Coc kell could not manage to last 3 rds.

- - When Archie beat up Valdes, he became the man to beat...end of...

U was beat up before U was ever hatched in comparison.

[Ivich]

- - When Archie beat up Valdes, he became the man to beat...end of...

U was beat up before U was ever hatched in comparison.

What a moron like you cannot grasp is Moore beat Valdes in March 53 but Valdes went on to beat the number 1 contender Charles and replaced him at number 1. Moore, who by the way Charles had beaten 3 out of 3 did not crack the heavyweight ratings until1955!
At the end of 1953 and 1954 Valdes was the number 1 contender.
Got it now you thick ****?

[Ivich]

There is a short window in summer of '53 when Valdez defeats Charles. Charles then drops a SD to H. Johnson which should have pushed him out of contention. But Charles follows those losses up with two stoppages reasserting himself. (One of which is Satterfield.)

My take on the situation is always the same, it's not professional boxing we are dealing with here, but prize fighting.

Charles was redeemed enough (by those two stoppages) and because he was a former HW champion, with Joe Louis' scalp on his belt, he was the contender that could build the gate. Valdez wasn't that guy.

After the first fight, a UD win by Marciano, many called for the rematch. That ate up Marciano's two fight for 1954 leaving the worthy Valdez out in the cold.

Valdez then stumbled over Moore, having lost to him twice, once in 1953 and then again over 15 rounds in 1955. That pretty much ensured Marciano would take the easier fight with Moore.

Once again we have to add in Moore's popularity as well. Moore who had established his name with two wins over Joey Maxim was a prior (LHW) Champion.

Prize fight fans like it more when two champions clash; prize fight fans like it more when two known names meet.

No doubt the first 1954 defense should have gone to Valdez not Charles, but that is professional boxing and "sport league" thinking.

That is not what drives prize fighting, nor ever has.

One has to think "the gate." That's all promoters think about.

These constant calls for fairness have always befuddled me. It has never been part of the fight game and still isn't.

Don't blame Marciano, blame prize fighting.

I'm happy that you agree Valdes should have got the shot.That is all I have ever wanted to establish.
I've never blamed Marciano for Valdes not getting one,I think Weill wanted no part of Nino.I also think Rocky would have felt affronted if anyone suggested he was scared of the Cuban,or any fighter for that matter.
Moore wasn't popular until he began his publicity campaign , writing letters to newspapers and having posters printed saying WANTED BY Sheriff Archie Moore accompanied with a picture of Marciano .
It took Archie 174 fights at the age of 41 to get a fight in MSG defending his title against Johnson, take a look at the venues he was fighting in,including his 3 fights with Maxim.
Archie adopted a persona to make himself colourful, he re - invented himself.

[Ivich]

Your mention of Al Weill made me think of another caveat that may have blocked Valdez from getting a shot at Marciano, the IBC.

In 1949 Truman Gibson connected the aging and broke Joe Louis up with Frankie Carbo and Jim Norris (MSG stock holder) and they formed the IBC.

Louis (who recieved 20% of the initial stock was bought out with desperately needed cash a year later) was used as a front man to sign Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Lee Savoldi, and Gus Lesnevich to exclusive contracts.

By the time 1954 rolls around the IBC was at the top of its strength and Al Weill was all in with Carbo.

Had Marciano lost his title to either Charles or Walcott it would have had no effect on Carbo's control of the HW Title.

A Valdez victory over Marciano would have meant the HW Title would be in the hands of the Cubans (and possibly a whole different set of gangsters led by Santo Trafficanti who was connected to the Bonanno crime family in New York. While Frankie Carbo was connected to Lucchese family [later called the Gambino family.] The families didn't always play well together.)

I don't buy into Al Weill being concerned about Valdez' boxing prowess, I believe one always needs to look beyond the ring to understand the fight game.

P.S. In regards to the Moore-Maxim goes not being held at MSG. Joey Maxim was managed by none other than Doc Kearns.

Kearns was the only stalwart manager who refused to bow to the IBC, and was at odds with Carbo and Norris.

Imagine me saying something positive about Doc Kearns, LOL.

Moore fought Maxim for nothing just to get his shot,won it and inherited a new manager, Kearns who matched him with Joey twice more.
Weill did what Carbo told him.When Carbo was in hospital Rocky went to see him.

[Ivich]

It figures Kearns would hold Moore hostage for the title fight and then use him again and again.

I am a bit confused about the Rocky/Carbo remark. Carbo died at home in Miami in1976.

He was paroled early because of the cancer, but I can't find a date of that parole.

I guess it could have been before Rocky died in 1969, but suffering for five years with cancer in the late 1960s and into middle 1970s seems suprising but not impossible.

Seems Rocky mat have visited him in hospital (maybe in prison) but not at his death bed.

P.S. I wanted to PM this particular note but found that you block PMs.

Yes you are right.Rocky did visit him in hospital but it was years previously before he died,my mistake.

[QueensburyRules]

What a moron like you cannot grasp is Moore beat Valdes in March 53 but Valdes went on to beat the number 1 contender Charles and replaced him at number 1. Moore, who by the way Charles had beaten 3 out of 3 did not crack the heavyweight ratings until1955!
At the end of 1953 and 1954 Valdes was the number 1 contender.
Got it now you thick ****?

- - If U gits any Dumberer, U gonna be living in U crack eating French snails...

• Moore was to have had a tuneup fight against Frankie Daniels in San Diego, California, on March 18, 1955. However, the bout was canceled and Moore's license was revoked by the state commission after doctors said Moore had a heart ailment. The following month, a specialist declared Moore's heart to be "extraordinarily good," and his fight with Valdes went on as scheduled.
• Promoter Jack Kearns announced that Moore and Valdes would fight for the "World Heavyweight Championship of Nevada." Referring to World Heavyweight Champion Rocky Marciano, Kearns said, "That other guy refused to fight either Moore or Valdes, so they're declaring the title vacant and the winner will claim it."
• Moore was a 2 to 1 betting favorite.
• Moore was the reigning World Light Heavyweight Champion, and Valdes was the No. 1-ranked heavyweight contender.
• There was a crowd of 10,800, and the gate receipts were $102,678.
• Former World Heavyweight Champion James J. Braddock was the referee and sole judge.
• The Associated Press had the fight even going into the final round. The AP reported: "Moore closed fast to win the decision."
• The United Press scored the fight 8-6-1 for Moore.
• Ring Ratings for 1953/54/55. Archie beat Moore in 1955, defended his LH title vs Bobo Olson via KO, and fought Rocky 4 months after beating Valdez

Rocky Marciano, Champion Nino Valdes Ezzard Charles Dan Bucceroni Roland LaStarza Earl Walls Don ****ell Clarence Henry Tommy Harrison Bob Satterfield Coley Wallace	Rocky Marciano, Champion Nino Valdes Don ****ell Ezzard Charles Bob Baker Earl Walls Heinz Neuhaus Rex Layne Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson Charley Norkus Jimmy Slade	Rocky Marciano, Champion Archie Moore Bob Baker Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson John Holman Willie Pastrano Nino Valdes Johnny Summerlin Bob Satterfield Young Jack Johnson Ezzard Charles

[them_apples]

Wlad wouldn’t beat Charles. He wouldn’t be able to hit him and Charles will likely get a few good ones in each round. I’m not sure if Charles stops him, wlad does have a weak jaw and Charles would probably find it - but not being a big puncher himself he may not be able to get the job done reaching up that high.

wlad is too tight though and muscle bound, he’s gonna struggle to hit Charles with anything even a jab. The skill gap is massive.

[JAB5239]

Got to disagree again.

IMHO a man that large, with that reach, who made his bones with the jab, is going to land that jab on any fighter, at least a few per round, if not more.

Wlad controlled Byrd with the jab, and it's harder to land that punch on a southpaw. To beat Wlad as a smaller fighter you need to apply pressure. Not to many smaller fighters are going to outbox him in my opinion, but there are some.

[them_apples]

Got to disagree again.

IMHO a man that large, with that reach, who made his bones with the jab, is going to land that jab on any fighter, at least a few per round, if not more.

The skill gap is too high. Its how fat 5 ft 9 Toney beat so many Heavies. Charles is way too savvy and slick. The gap is huge.