Greater fighter, Harry Wills or Sam Langford?

[QueensburyRules]

Wills had been told for years he was getting a Dempsey fight only to be asked to jump thru hoops while Jack fought rematches with guys he had already beaten or less deserving fighters. Wills had no reason to believe Dempsey would honor anything at that point.

- - Quite well established how Dempsey moved the heavens to make that fight with incredible sacrifices in time and money and career, but he could not move the hell of segregation of the day until it was too late for both of them...simples...

[Ivich]

- - Quite well established how Dempsey moved the heavens to make that fight with incredible sacrifices in time and money and career, but he could not move the hell of segregation of the day until it was too late for both of them...simples...

Actually I don't think it is.
Personally I think Jack would have had no problem with fighting Wills and I would pick him to win by a ko,the bigger slower guys were meat for Jack ,However its never been ascertained how much effort he put into making the fight happen.
We know Muldoon didn't want the fight no matter what he may have publicly said about it.
We know Rickard didn't want it.
What we don't know to this day is how far Dempsey went to secure the fight?

[QueensburyRules]

Actually I don't think it is.
Personally I think Jack would have had no problem with fighting Wills and I would pick him to win by a ko,the bigger slower guys were meat for Jack ,However its never been ascertained how much effort he put into making the fight happen.
We know Muldoon didn't want the fight no matter what he may have publicly said about it.
We know Rickard didn't want it.
What we don't know to this day is how far Dempsey went to secure the fight?

- - Teensy has unearthed an encyclopedia's worth of documentation showing how difficult the political structure was that affected the financing and venue.

After Willard, wealthy playwright Harry Frazee who also owned the Boston Red Sox where the first fight was proposed as a huge stadium fight.

Shot down by Politicos, he moves the fight to New York with similar results. By then MLB in a major freefall over the alleged fixed 1919 World Series is in a freefall environment where he is accused of being a *** in spite of no evidence given the preponderance of his public presence. The fight dies again.

Resurrected again and again, either the $$$ or venue could not be had because who wants to put up funds, time, and expenses to have the fight banned yet again?

Maybe Teensy who loves self flagellation.

[JAB5239]

- - Quite well established how Dempsey moved the heavens to make that fight with incredible sacrifices in time and money and career, but he could not move the hell of segregation of the day until it was too late for both of them...simples...

A bit dramatical, dont you think?

I find it amusing how you think Dempsey did so much to make this fight happen, but couldn't. Yet fighting Tunney would magically make this fight appear.

[Willie Pep 229]

A bit dramatical, dont you think?

I find it amusing how you think Dempsey did so much to make this fight happen, but couldn't. Yet fighting Tunney would magically make this fight appear.

It doesn't make the fight magically appear - but Tunney-Wills (in '25 or early '26) would have been an elimination fight and with a Wills' victory Tex Rickard would have been pressured into finally making the Wills-Dempsey fight he should have made back in 1922.

So I believe if Wills beats Tunney he finally gets Dempsey in fall 1926 with Rickard promoting.

Also the NYSAC would have been on board, Muldoon gone, Farley in, the fight would have been in the Polo Grounds or if there was still dispute over ticket price ceilings, then at Boyles Thirty-Acres in New Jersey.

Yea, I got to say, if Wills fights Tunney, beats him, he likely gets his shot.

But yes you can argue he deserved that shot back in 1922, and if not then, then definitely in '24 after defeating Firpo.

[JAB5239]

It doesn't make the fight magically appear - but Tunney-Wills (in '25 or early '26) would have been an elimination fight and with a Wills' victory Tex Rickard would have been pressured into finally making the Wills-Dempsey fight he should have made back in 1922.

So I believe if Wills beats Tunney he finally gets Dempsey in fall 1926 with Rickard promoting.

Also the NYSAC would have been on board, Muldoon gone, Farley in, the fight would have been in the Polo Grounds or if there was still dispute over ticket price ceilings, then at Boyles Thirty-Acres in New Jersey.

Yea, I got to say, if Wills fights Tunney, beats him, he likely gets his shot.

But yes you can argue he deserved that shot back in 1922, and if not then, then definitely in '24 after defeating Firpo.

All possibilities. But given the history, if you were Wills would you have trusted in all these things to come together then when they hadnt so many other times before?

I don't know what Wills was thinking, but I can only imagine. Highly doubtful we'll ever know for sure ALL the reasons this fight didn't get made, but I think as boxing fans we can agree that Dempsey and Wills were the two best heavyweights for years and should have met, at least if it were a different time.

[Ivich]

- - Teensy has unearthed an encyclopedia's worth of documentation showing how difficult the political structure was that affected the financing and venue.

After Willard, wealthy playwright Harry Frazee who also owned the Boston Red Sox where the first fight was proposed as a huge stadium fight.

Shot down by Politicos, he moves the fight to New York with similar results. By then MLB in a major freefall over the alleged fixed 1919 World Series is in a freefall environment where he is accused of being a *** in spite of no evidence given the preponderance of his public presence. The fight dies again.

Resurrected again and again, either the $$$ or venue could not be had because who wants to put up funds, time, and expenses to have the fight banned yet again?

Maybe Teensy who loves self flagellation.

It's quite possible that others tried very hard to make the fight,but what's in question is how hard Dempsey did? WTF are Teensy and MLB? Can't you just make a straightforward post?

[QueensburyRules]

It's quite possible that others tried very hard to make the fight,but what's in question is how hard Dempsey did? WTF are Teensy and MLB? Can't you just make a straightforward post?

- - Dempsey was a bum riding the rails until Kearns saw him and made him into a Star for the Ages with substantial Rickard help.

He had no power, no wealth, no nothing but a willingness to fight, and point in fact when he elected to leave Kearns to make the Wills fight while being financed as a movie star in Hollywood, Kearns filed suits attaching his bank account meaning he had to operate his finances through a 3rd party.

Had that been the Vietnam War draft he stood up to like Ali, he'd be lauded to the hilt, but instead it was the financial structure in 1920s boxing that he stood up to, and now he's old and forgotten for noobs like you to ask such questions.

In the end, he ushered in boxing as a spectacle sport generating huge sums at the gate and wagering outfits, becaming an all time legend.

When are U gonna correct the bankrupt ills of your country? How hard are U working to that end?

We wanna flow chart...

[JAB5239]

- - Dempsey was a bum riding the rails until Kearns saw him and made him into a Star for the Ages with substantial Rickard help.

He had no power, no wealth, no nothing but a willingness to fight, and point in fact when he elected to leave Kearns to make the Wills fight while being financed as a movie star in Hollywood, Kearns filed suits attaching his bank account meaning he had to operate his finances through a 3rd party.

Had that been the Vietnam War draft he stood up to like Ali, he'd be lauded to the hilt, but instead it was the financial structure in 1920s boxing that he stood up to, and now he's old and forgotten for noobs like you to ask such questions.

In the end, he ushered in boxing as a spectacle sport generating huge sums at the gate and wagering outfits, becaming an all time legend.

When are U gonna correct the bankrupt ills of your country? How hard are U working to that end?

We wanna flow chart...

You didn't answer his question at all. Not sure why you chose to rant in the direction you chose, but Drmpsey is anything but forgotten in boxing history.

[billeau2]

Actually I don't think it is.
Personally I think Jack would have had no problem with fighting Wills and I would pick him to win by a ko,the bigger slower guys were meat for Jack ,However its never been ascertained how much effort he put into making the fight happen.
We know Muldoon didn't want the fight no matter what he may have publicly said about it.
We know Rickard didn't want it.
What we don't know to this day is how far Dempsey went to secure the fight?

I hate to wade into this one lol. My theory, and I admit others have put all kinds of thought into this issue... Jack would fight anyone. His management, on the other hand, knew they had one of two of the inchoate sports figures known as "superstars" (Babe being the other). Its probably similar to the reason the babe, who many thought was an even better pitcher, became a hitter... Think the difference between watching Barry Bonds at the plate, versus another Strikeout from a great pitcher, which has greater entertainment value for casual fans. Wills, by all accounts a decent guy, a good businessman, and a decent fighter, got the short end of that stick. I have also always maintained that Wills, a late starter (at a time when most guys were fighting in their early teens), a guy with good skills but not really a Killer instinct, would not have been much for Jack to handle... But who knows lol.