Dempsey Overrated?

[sonnyboyx2]

I've let this pass a few times, but enough already. I didn't call anyone an idiot. Well except maybe you. Just because it is convenient for you to consider me and Joseph as one, it isn't the case. I don't often bash Mike Tyson here. I respect the greats from the past. I'm far past my 20's. And Joseph can speak very well for himself. Don't put words in my mouth. If you can't quote me then don't accuse me.

ive already quoted you: you claimed anyone who thinks Dempsey would go through Lennox Lewis is naive lol.... Rahman & McCall two mediocre journeymen both poleaxed Lewis. Lewis ability to take a punch is so bad, the referee could have counted a hundred against Rahman. Just imagine what Jack Dempsey would have done? Dempsey broke Jess Willards jaw, check-bone and eye-socket with his punches. He broke several of Willards ribs and knocked the big mans teeth out, such was his punching power. Yet it is naive for anyone to think he could go through Lewis! Oliver McCall walked right through Lewis in less than 2rds. Yet both Rahman & McCall was never able to "poleaxe" any other of their opponents like they did Lewis. But it's Naive to think Dempsey would go through him

[Scott9945]

ive already quoted you: you claimed anyone who thinks Dempsey would go through Lennox Lewis is naive lol.... Rahman & McCall two mediocre journeymen both poleaxed Lewis. Lewis ability to take a punch is so bad, the referee could have counted a hundred against Rahman. Just imagine what Jack Dempsey would have done? Dempsey broke Jess Willards jaw, check-bone and eye-socket with his punches. He broke several of Willards ribs and knocked the big mans teeth out, such was his punching power. Yet it is naive for anyone to think he could go through Lewis! Oliver McCall walked right through Lewis in less than 2rds. Yet both Rahman & McCall was never able to "poleaxe" any other of their opponents like they did Lewis. But it's Naive to think Dempsey would go through him

Willard was total crap. I'll stand by that. Dempsey could possibly beat Lewis, but I don't think it would go like that. Willard's broken bones and teeth prove nothing. Everyone knows Dempsey hit very hard. And I guess that landing one punch with your eyes closed equals walking through someone. Okay then...

[joseph5620]

i never said Frazier said Ali was the greatest. i said its "SIMILAR" to Frazier claiming Ali to be the greatest. as they fought eachother, but you as always will twist it to try to suit your agenda. As for you now being in your thirties, well it was only a couple of weeks ago you claimed to be in your twenties?... which is it Troll or do you not know your own age.

It's not "similar" because it never happened. So you can't make the comparison.

Also, please dig up all of the post where either Scott or I "bashed" all of the past greats. When you don't come up with anything you should kindly shut up about it and stop lying.

But lying is your MO and Dempsey's resume still doesn't match your description as the greatest ever. Cry about it as much as you want.

[sonnyboyx2]

It's not "similar" because it never happened. So you can't make the comparison.

Also, please dig up all of the post where either Scott or I "bashed" all of the past greats. When you don't come up with anything you should kindly shut up about it and stop lying.

But lying is your MO and Dempsey's resume still doesn't match your description as the greatest ever. Cry about it as much as you want.

You are so arrogant and condescending that it's laughable. Your asking me to dig up posts where you and your "Side-piece" bashed past greats. Well i need go no further than this subject right here. You labeled Hall of Fame Former Heavyweight Champion of the World Gene Tunney a "Hyperbolic Idiot" FFS. You trash Jack Dempsey & Mike Tyson, you label Jesse Willard as "CRAP"....Big Jesse Willard who went 26rds with Jack Johnson in 90* degree heat. you call him "Crap"...Could your hero Lennox Lewis go 26rds against Jack Johnson?...He couldn't go 2rds with a ready Oliver McCall FFS..

Your whole agenda is to trash, bash, belittle and rubbish many great fighters from the past. You do it on this forum almost daily, so to deny it shows exactly what kind of a dishonest lying Troll you are.

[joeandthebums]

I'm going to post this despite doing so in the middle of a mine field.

On news of Marciano's retirement in 1956, Tunney gave a few interviews. After his good words on Marciano came the inevitable question of his standing among the greats.

Tunney was of the believe Dempsey would of knocked out Marciano and Louis in "a round or two".

"Dempsey was the greatest ever, I don't put myself in his class. He was a fighter. I was a boxer who could hit and avoid punishment. But I always thought a boxer could lick a fighter."

--

In every interview and article I have come across Tunney never deviates from his opinions on Dempsey, he always when asked on any fantasy match-up predicted a Dempsey victory.

My view of it is Tunney opinions are obviously valid, his explanations when lengthy usually provide a good amount of reasoning for his final verdict - I just happen to disagree with him.

[sonnyboyx2]

I'm going to post this despite doing so in the middle of a mine field.

On news of Marciano's retirement in 1956, Tunney gave a few interviews. After his good words on Marciano came the inevitable question of his standing among the greats.

Tunney was of the believe Dempsey would of knocked out Marciano and Louis in "a round or two".

"Dempsey was the greatest ever, I don't put myself in his class. He was a fighter. I was a boxer who could hit and avoid punishment. But I always thought a boxer could lick a fighter."

--

In every interview and article I have come across Tunney never deviates from his opinions on Dempsey, he always when asked on any fantasy match-up predicted a Dempsey victory.

My view of it is Tunney opinions are obviously valid, his explanations when lengthy usually provide a good amount of reasoning for his final verdict - I just happen to disagree with him.

Great Post, as always...and your entitled to disagree if that is your opinion. What makes me so strong a believer in Dempsey, is guys like Ray Arcel, Tunney, Jack Sharkey, Red Smith, Paul Gallico and Benny Leonard all claimed to their dying day. He was "The Greatest Ever"..They all no doubt seen Harry Grebb, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Cassius Clay, Ray Leonard, Ray Robinson yet were hardened in their belief of Dempsey's greatness... But hey` who the flick are they to tell us when we have Laurel & flicking Hardy, right here on the forum. Who can tell us that they are all a bunch of idiots and Lennox would do this and do that.

[billeau2]

Surely the very comparison between someone like Dempsey and some modern heavyweight is the problem. I mean looking at the respective careers of Dempsey and someone like Lennox Lewis doesn't really do the job. The time periods they both fought in were massively different in numerous ways. The reasons Dempsey was so highly thought of in his time, and subsequent generations, had absolutely nothing to do with 'resume' and all that stuff that sustains internet forum discussion.



It is not much proof at all, you are talking about opinions formed from memories of fighters they had seen fight many decades before and then using those memories to compare to contemporary fighters. It is ludicrous, completely worthless as evidence.

Expert opinions...the same type of opinions that hold up legally, and that people often pay money for via consulting gigs. Everything we think is formed from memories...anecdotal evidence is a type of proof, it has its limitations, it is not scientific in nature....and lastly the guys compared Dempsey to fighters they had also witnessed in the ring so no it is not worthless.

[billeau2]

i dont have to deal with nothing, it's you who has the explaining to do, to everyone on this forum. You have to explain how Gene Tunney is an "Exaggerating Idiot".. who knows nothing. Coz you are the person who knows it all about Jack Dempsey and you are standing by your word!

Ray Arcel, Whitey Bernstein, A.J. Liebling, Tex Rickard, Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Al Jolson, Benny Leonard, Jack Sharkey, Red Smith are all a bunch of "Hyperbolic Idiots" who know nothing about the sport of boxing. Because 30yrs old Joseph5620 is standing by his word and his word is God!

Boy o boy` what can i say, All those legendary boxing men are in Joseph & Scott's opinion a "Bunch of Idiots"...They know nothing while Joseph & Scott know everything. Yes our very own Laurel & Hardy of this forum are "Standing by what they said. Gene Tunney is an idiot. Dempsey fans are naive if they think he would go through Klitscko & Lewis (Rahman, McCall, Brewster, Sanders all did)..jeez this takes some believing!

Can you take a chill pill? trying to have a respectful argument here without all the ad hominum BS. There is nothing outlandish about not rating Dempsey as one of the best....I happen to think the anecdotal evidence is convincing, and others do, and some don't. There is a reason this is debated and it is not because of an agenda...It makes life interesting because some people think Dempsey was a ducker versus Black fighters.... a throwback to an earlier type of brutish fighter....And some disagree. I do think that the opinions of the trainers who stand by Dempsey hold water because of whom they have seen fight, its interesting that you can draw a line from respected sources both from Jack J and from dempsey up until the guys in the seventies that claim Jack was the best. BUT THIS POINT IS DEBATABLE!!! Its not like an Elroy special

[joseph5620]

You are so arrogant and condescending that it's laughable. Your asking me to dig up posts where you and your "Side-piece" bashed past greats. Well i need go no further than this subject right here. You labeled Hall of Fame Former Heavyweight Champion of the World Gene Tunney a "Hyperbolic Idiot" FFS. You trash Jack Dempsey & Mike Tyson, you label Jesse Willard as "CRAP"....Big Jesse Willard who went 26rds with Jack Johnson in 90* degree heat. you call him "Crap"...Could your hero Lennox Lewis go 26rds against Jack Johnson?...He couldn't go 2rds with a ready Oliver McCall FFS..

Your whole agenda is to trash, bash, belittle and rubbish many great fighters from the past. You do it on this forum almost daily, so to deny it shows exactly what kind of a dishonest lying Troll you are.

I didn't say Tunney was an idiot. I said his comments about Holmes and Norton were idiotic and hyperbolic and they were no matter how much that burns your soul When a fighter throws something like that out there with no analysis or breakdown it's a biased, idiotic, and hyperbolic comment.

It's on the same level as Holmes claiming Wladimir Klitschko has no jab. Totally self absorbed and agenda driven.

I never said anything about Tunney as a boxer.

If anybody bashes fighters it's you. Just like when you
said Ali was more wild against Wepner than Dempsey which is laughable. Or your ongoing agenda against Lewis where you have stooped to making up lies. "David Tua weighed 258"

Oh, and Jess Williard is no all time great at all and will never be considered as such. Keep telling yourself that, clown.


Try coming up with some new material. You've bored me enough for today.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

I have yet to see anyone prove that Dempsey is not overrated.. If you think he is a top 10 ATG at heavy then yeah your overrating him,, even top 20 would be overrating him imo

Was he the biggest draw of his era, yes of course.. Was he a legend, yes.. But is an a true ATG, no, the evidence is just not there..

Opinions from famous names in boxing is not evidence, and claiming they are experts like the ones used in court is mostly wrong.. Experts in court are used to determine scientific fact, not judgement if a guy is guilty or innocent.. If that was the case, every murder trial would use a former top level homicide detective with decades of experience and have him get on the stand and declare someone innocent or guilty based on his opinion... Experts are used to determine facts and probabilities, not innocence, guilt, atg, or not atg...

If Dempsey is compared to other heavys throughout history, he falls woefully short of atg status..
Great offensive fighter, but not an elite one... Oscar was a great offensive fighter, so was pryor, and both have wins as good arguably as Dempsey has, but they aren't considered elite..
I think you can put Dempsey in the same category as tito Trinidad, great offensive monsters, but not elite atg fighters and could be dissected by elite boxers ie Tunney hopkins