Dempsey Overrated?

[Scott9945]

Sam Langford who never fought Dempsey said,"Dempsey was the greatest fighter he ever seen in his life".. Langford & Tunney a pair of "Hyperbolic Idiots"

Well it seems i have been proven correct with the proof here for all to see. i made the claim only a couple of weeks ago, that Joseph & Scott their sole mission on this forum was to "Rubbish the careers & accomplishments of most legendary all time great fighters"... Gene Tunney, along with Sam Langford, Ray Arcel and every boxing historian in history are all wrong, and a bunch of "Hyperbolic Idiots". because Joseph & Scott are "standing by what they said". FFS

Oh, so when you said you were "outta here", it apparently was just for the weekend. That's ok, I should know better than to believe a pathological liar anyway.

And I thought our mission here was to turn this forum into a "Lennox Lewis fan club"? You really need to keep better track of your paranoia. You're typically badly overreacting to someone simply disagreeing with you. Again. Get a grip, clown. The purpose of this forum is to exchange views, not to bow down to you and accept your agenda.

[Humean]

In most cases, resume plays a big part for me. Which is why I am quick to point it out with fighters like Tyson or Dempsey. I can't go by what if, hypotheticals, or biased opinions.

Someone can overrate these fighters until they turn blue in the face. I can only go by what they actually did in their career.

In the case of Dempsey, five title defenses in seven years leaves him nowhere near a greatest of all time discussion.

Arcel or whoever else can offer their opinions but unless Dempsey actually rolled through every fighter in the history of the division, they have nothing factual to make me believe it.


Tunney has plenty of reasons to overrate Dempsey because it makes his career look better. I'm not buying that Tunney was so modest that he would never do that.

Most boxer's and athletes are competitive by nature when it comes to their careers. They might try to hide it but it always slips out.

Surely the very comparison between someone like Dempsey and some modern heavyweight is the problem. I mean looking at the respective careers of Dempsey and someone like Lennox Lewis doesn't really do the job. The time periods they both fought in were massively different in numerous ways. The reasons Dempsey was so highly thought of in his time, and subsequent generations, had absolutely nothing to do with 'resume' and all that stuff that sustains internet forum discussion.

What you guys are missing here is actual information there is proof of. Tunney lived to a ripe old age and was very well known. It is common knowledge that psychologically he was a certain type of individual. Some people are Brian Williams types and tell you they were shot down in helicopters, others just don't fit that profile.

Also yu have trainers all the way up to the seventies weighing in.

These instances are anecdotal but they are proof. To compare Dempsey to Gatti is ridiculous....I won't even respond to that idiocy but you didn't say that and seemed not as eager to ride the short bus on this one... i.e. yeah fighters might want to enhance, but even if that were so, there is other proof including guys who actually saw a lot of the heavyweights fight during several generations of gifted fighters.

It is not much proof at all, you are talking about opinions formed from memories of fighters they had seen fight many decades before and then using those memories to compare to contemporary fighters. It is ludicrous, completely worthless as evidence.

[K-DOGG]

Its a perfectly legitimate question. Personally, I've got Dempsey at # 6 behind Ali, Louis, Lewis, Johnson, and Holmes.

To me, it's about his victories on the way to the title against the likes of Brendan and Squires and others as well as his performances in his title fights. He, according to him, was knocked unconscious in Round 1 of the Firpo fight and roared back to stop the man in the next round. He said he didn't remember the fight after the first minute or so.

That's what sums Dempsey up: his heart and will to win...you had to kill him, when he was at his best.

He'd been out of the ring for three years by the time he fought Tunney and had been living it up in Hollywood and had lost some of his edge. Still, in the following fight with young contender, Sharkey and the Tunney rematch, he showed he was still dangerous as long as he was in there.

Oh...and yes, Tunney was a great boxer.

[sonnyboyx2]

Its a perfectly legitimate question. Personally, I've got Dempsey at # 6 behind Ali, Louis, Lewis, Johnson, and Holmes.

To me, it's about his victories on the way to the title against the likes of Brendan and Squires and others as well as his performances in his title fights. He, according to him, was knocked unconscious in Round 1 of the Firpo fight and roared back to stop the man in the next round. He said he didn't remember the fight after the first minute or so.

That's what sums Dempsey up: his heart and will to win...you had to kill him, when he was at his best.

He'd been out of the ring for three years by the time he fought Tunney and had been living it up in Hollywood and had lost some of his edge. Still, in the following fight with young contender, Sharkey and the Tunney rematch, he showed he was still dangerous as long as he was in there.

Oh...and yes, Tunney was a great boxer.

your correct Dogg. What is missed throughout this discussion, is what you have rightly pointed out: "Tunney was a great Fighter"..

It is widely acknowledged on this history section and almost every other internet Boxing forum, that Harry Grebb is one of the greatest, if not thee greatest fighter of all times. Going by his resume and newspaper cuttings, it very much looks that way. Yet Gene Tunney fought him on 5 occasions, mastering him after taking a dreadful beating in their first fight. The vast numbers of boxing fans, historians etc. who use these boxing forums, who hold Harry Grebb in such high esteem. Along with all the old trainers, reporters and past historians who rate Dempsey as the Greatest. Then Surely the guy who is in "The Box Seat" who's opinion we must take very seriously is Gene Tunney. A man who was "Careful of thought, intelligent, sober and accurate"..Who to his dying day claimed Jack Dempsey to be "The Greatest Fighter who ever lived"..

[sonnyboyx2]

You should shut the hell up with this transparent agenda of yours. Why don't you debate like a man without whining like a prissy little girl whenever your opinions are challenged.

Yes, I sure do stand by my comments. Tunney downplayed Holmes and Norton as easy first round knockouts for Dempsey. Idiotic and hyperbolic.

Better yet, find a quote where Frazier called Ali the greatest fighter ever. Link please. Frazier hated Ali after their fights and the two made peace not too long before Fraziers death. Bring it.

Joseph & Scott... The Laurel & Hardy of this forum. who's sole objective is to Troll and rubbish the achievements of past great fighters. You both are Mike Tyson haters, who rubbish Tyson's achievements almost daily on this forum. Yet their is no substance or fact to your argument, you are wrong at every single point of your pathetic hatred towards boxers from yesteryear. Being in your mid-20s tells me all i need to know of your limited knowledge of Boxing History. You was not even born when Mike Tyson was being talked of as "One of the Greatest of all Time"... it's time for me to have some fun with you two clowns, in defense of all the great fighters from the past who you trash on a daily basis.

[joseph5620]

Joseph & Scott... The Laurel & Hardy of this forum. who's sole objective is to Troll and rubbish the achievements of past great fighters. You both are Mike Tyson haters, who rubbish Tyson's achievements almost daily on this forum. Yet their is no substance or fact to your argument, you are wrong at every single point of your pathetic hatred towards boxers from yesteryear. Being in your mid-20s tells me all i need to know of your limited knowledge of Boxing History. You was not even born when Mike Tyson was being talked of as "One of the Greatest of all Time"... it's time for me to have some fun with you two clowns, in defense of all the great fighters from the past who you trash on a daily basis.

First of all I'm in my thirties, not mid twenties liar. Second are you ever going to find the quote where you claimed Frazier called Ali the greatest ever?That's what I thought.

Another lie. Were you born when Dempsey was fighting?

In the meantime, you can continue to cry like a little b*tch evertime you're caught in a lie or questioned or you can man up. Because I'll continue to expose your sorry agenda whenever I choose to do so.

If that's too much for you, this forum is obviously too rough for a thin skinned child like you.

Dempsey's record doesn't match your description of him as the greatest ever.

Deal with it.

[sonnyboyx2]

First of all I'm in my thirties, not mid twenties liar. Second are you ever going to find the quote where you claimed Frazier called Ali the greatest ever?That's what I thought.
Another lie. Were you born when Dempsey was fighting?

In the meantime, you can continue to cry like a little b *tch evertime you're caught in a lie or questioned or man up.Because I'll continue to expose your sorry agenda whenever I choose to do so.

If that's too much for you, this forum is obviously too rough for a thin skinned child like you.

Dempsey's record doesn't match your description of him the greatest ever.

Deal with it.

i never said Frazier said Ali was the greatest. i said its "SIMILAR" to Frazier claiming Ali to be the greatest. as they fought eachother, but you as always will twist it to try to suit your agenda. As for you now being in your thirties, well it was only a couple of weeks ago you claimed to be in your twenties?... which is it Troll or do you not know your own age.

[sonnyboyx2]

First of all I'm in my thirties, not mid twenties liar. Second are you ever going to find the quote where you claimed Frazier called Ali the greatest ever?That's what I thought.
Another lie. Were you born when Dempsey was fighting?

In the meantime, you can continue to cry like a little b *tch evertime you're caught in a lie or questioned or man up.Because I'll continue to expose your sorry agenda whenever I choose to do so.

If that's too much for you, this forum is obviously too rough for a thin skinned child like you.

Dempsey's record doesn't match your description of him the greatest ever.

Deal with it.

i dont have to deal with nothing, it's you who has the explaining to do, to everyone on this forum. You have to explain how Gene Tunney is an "Exaggerating Idiot".. who knows nothing. Coz you are the person who knows it all about Jack Dempsey and you are standing by your word!

Ray Arcel, Whitey Bernstein, A.J. Liebling, Tex Rickard, Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Al Jolson, Benny Leonard, Jack Sharkey, Red Smith are all a bunch of "Hyperbolic Idiots" who know nothing about the sport of boxing. Because 30yrs old Joseph5620 is standing by his word and his word is God!

Boy o boy` what can i say, All those legendary boxing men are in Joseph & Scott's opinion a "Bunch of Idiots"...They know nothing while Joseph & Scott know everything. Yes our very own Laurel & Hardy of this forum are "Standing by what they said. Gene Tunney is an idiot. Dempsey fans are naive if they think he would go through Klitscko & Lewis (Rahman, McCall, Brewster, Sanders all did)..jeez this takes some believing!

[sonnyboyx2]

Here is the exact quote, I messed it up slightly. Tunney actually said that Dempsey would flatten all the top 4 heavyweights of that time in one night.




In a 1952 interview with ‘Look’ magazine, Gene spoke of Dempsey thus: “Jack Dempsey, I’m convinced, was our greatest heavyweight champion. In his prime, when he knocked out Jess Willard to win the title in 1919, he would have taken the four leading heavyweights of today – Jersey Joe Walcott, Rocky Marciano, Harry (Kid) Matthews and Ezzard Charles – and flattened them all in one night.

“These four men are honest, earnest, capable professionals. If they are not touched with ring genius, neither are they stumblebums. So I do not mean to deprecate them when I say Dempsey would have levelled them all in the same evening as follows: Matthews, two rounds. Charles, two rounds. Walcott, five rounds. Marciano, one round.

“A total of ten rounds. Even then, I don’t consider I’m giving Dempsey any the best of it. He might have demolished each of the four in less than one round. He was eminently equipped to do it. He had many championship gifts, including a great fighting heart and the ability to absorb a tremendous punch and recuperate astonishingly fast.

“He learned his trade the hard way against fighters of all sizes, shape and brands from mining camp, deadfall and dance hall to huge arena and stadium.

“Jack was no wild slugger. He was an extremely clever fusion of fighter and boxer. He fought out of a peculiar weave and bob and was very difficult to hit with a solid punch. In the 20 rounds I fought him – 10 at Philadelphia in 1926 and 10 at Chicago the following year – I never did get a clean shot at his jaw. He was always weaving and bobbing away from the direct line of fire.

“Dempsey was criticised for not being able to knock out Tommy Gibbons – one of the all-time great boxers. Actually, that fight was one of Jack’s most impressive performances. Unable to reach his clever opponent with a knockout punch, he was still a fine enough combination of fighter and boxer to outscore Tommy all the way.

“But it was Dempsey the savage puncher, the scowling attacker, who thrilled the sports world. He was a great hitter. His right hand to body or jaw was explosive. Even more devastating was his left hook to liver and jaw. Weaving and bobbing, he feinted opponents into leads, slipped those leads and jolted home his short punches to body and head. He hurt and stunned opponents. He knocked them down and, eventually, kept them down.

“The most remarkable thing about Dempsey’s fighting make-up was the shortness of his punching. His blows seldom travelled more than six inches to a foot. He had a trick of hooking his left to the body and then to the head in practically the same movement.

“In his fight with Luis Firpo, Jack floored the huge Argentinian seven times in the first round and twice in the second before knocking him out. Yet, of all the punches he threw, only the last – a right to the jaw – was a long one.

“All the others were short, murderous jolts and digs to the heart and the kidney and the jaw. This ability of Dempsey to generate such punishing power over a few inches of swing, without seeming leverage, traced from a quick power inherent in his unusual shoulder conformation, with its high and bulging deltoid muscles.

“Beating Dempsey in his prime probably would have been something beyond them all, including Jack Johnson, Jim Jeffries and Joe Louis. My friend Harry Grayson, sports editor of the Newspaper Enterprise Association, may be right when he says that Louis would go in the first flurry of punches.”

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxin...seyFeature.htm

ShoulderRoll, nice find...i've read this in the past it's excellent insight into Dempsey. Maybe our Forum "Laurel & Hardy" should take the time to read it.

[Scott9945]

i dont have to deal with nothing, it's you who has the explaining to do, to everyone on this forum. You have to explain how Gene Tunney is an "Exaggerating Idiot".. who knows nothing. Coz you are the person who knows it all about Jack Dempsey and you are standing by your word!

Ray Arcel, Whitey Bernstein, A.J. Liebling, Tex Rickard, Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Al Jolson, Benny Leonard, Jack Sharkey, Red Smith are all a bunch of "Hyperbolic Idiots" who know nothing about the sport of boxing. Because 30yrs old Joseph5620 is standing by his word and his word is God!

Boy o boy` what can i say, All those legendary boxing men are in Joseph & Scott's opinion a "Bunch of Idiots"...They know nothing while Joseph & Scott know everything. Yes our very own Laurel & Hardy of this forum are "Standing by what they said. Gene Tunney is an idiot. Dempsey fans are naive if they think he would go through Klitscko & Lewis (Rahman, McCall, Brewster, Sanders all did)..jeez this takes some believing!

I've let this pass a few times, but enough already. I didn't call anyone an idiot. Well except maybe you. Just because it is convenient for you to consider me and Joseph as one, it isn't the case. I don't often bash Mike Tyson here. I respect the greats from the past. I'm far past my 20's. And Joseph can speak very well for himself. Don't put words in my mouth. If you can't quote me then don't accuse me.