If Rocky Marciano would of..........

[RockyMarcianofan00]

i don't.

open your eyes then

lol

[SuzieQ49]

no way liston loses to any marciano opponent period. liston, foreman, and tyoson would ko all of marciano opponents in the first round!

liston lost to marty marshall. tiger ted lowry was as good as marty marshall.


tyson lost to buster douglas, who was not as good as marcianos best opponents.


foreman lost to jimmy young, what makes u think he wont get upset by charles or walcott?


none of these guys could beat all of marcianos opponents if they went through the same circumstances marciano went through entering the fights!



liston, foreman, tyson on there BEST night goes 49-0 against marcianos comp.

however, if they have to go 49-0 against marcianos comp under the same circumstances marciano went through then no.

you have to take into factor off nights, inconsistency, out of shape, how they fight early in there career, burning out, getting upset, that sort of thing.

[butterfly1964]

liston lost to marty marshall. tiger ted lowry was as good as marty marshall.


tyson lost to buster douglas, who was not as good as marcianos best opponents.


foreman lost to jimmy young, what makes u think he wont get upset by charles or walcott?


none of these guys could beat all of marcianos opponents if they went through the same circumstances marciano went through entering the fights!



liston, foreman, tyson on there BEST night goes 49-0 against marcianos comp.

however, if they have to go 49-0 against marcianos comp under the same circumstances marciano went through then no.

you have to take into factor off nights, inconsistency, out of shape, how they fight early in there career, burning out, getting upset, that sort of thing.

how about the fact that these guys are jokes compared to tyson, foreman, and liston. no way they lose to them, period.

[SuzieQ49]

how about the fact that these guys are jokes compared to tyson, foreman, and liston. no way they lose to them, period.

forget it, u dont understand the point im trying to make.


marty marshall is a joke compared to rocky marciano, yet marshall beat sonny liston.


tiger ted lowry was better than marty marshall

[smasher]

liston lost to marty marshall. tiger ted lowry was as good as marty marshall.


none of these guys could beat all of marcianos opponents if they went through the same circumstances marciano went through entering the fights!

Picking a 38 year old Walcott and a 32 (1 month shy of 33) year old Charles over a 31 year old Frazier on the basis of Frazier looking slow, with shot reflexes, overweight and well past his prime, nothing compared to a vintage Frazier is an insult to both Joe and Ali who had to dig very deep to beat Frazier, deeper I may add than either Walcott or Charles ever had to dig to win a fight. Frazier only weighed 10 lbs more than he did in the FOTC. I wouldn't call that overweight. When Frazier dominated and stopped Quarry and Ellis in his fights preceeding Manilla he certainly didn't look like a slow fighter with shot reflexes. Frazier was past his peak but if he looked slow and shot in Manilla it was in large part due to Ali who likely fought the guttiest performance of his career that day.

Now, SuzyQ49. Before answering to the following questions please put down your copy of ROCK MARCIANO BIOGRAPHY OF A FIRST SON By Everett M. Skehan. It's plainly obvious that your so-called research amounts to continuous verbatim rip-offs and outright plagarism from this book. I want your opinions.

Liston lost to Marshall in just his 8th fight while Marciano fought Lowry in his 21st and 30th fights. You are taking these fights out of context. Marciano was a more experienced professional fighter by the time he fought Lowry than Liston was when he fought Marshall.

And on what basis are you concluding that Lowry was as good as Marshall? Marshall defeated and later floored one of the top ten greatest heavyweights of all time. Who was the best fighter Lowry defeated? Would Marciano beat Lowry in his 8th fight? If not maybe Marshall beats Marciano.

You keep referring to Marciano's circumstances. That's not the argument here. If Marciano was an unschooled amateur early in his career that doesn't change the calibre of his opposition. Nor does it change the fact that Liston, Tyson and Frazier were not unschooled amateurs and were better ability wise than Marciano was at the beginning of his career and thus would have beaten Marciano's early competition. After all if an unschooled amateur with little formal training could beat them, does it not make sense that Liston, Frazier and Tyson who were not unschooled amateurs would have also?

Why have you stayed clear of Dempsey, Louis, Ali, Foreman, and Holmes the other fighters I mentioned earlier in this thread? Selective debating or does Carmine Vingo KO Ali and Don ****ell outpoint Louis?

What is more likely to happen. Getting struck by lightning twice or SuzieQ49 saying anything unflattering about a Marciano or Louis opponent?

Try honestly answering these questions without the usual bias, slanted replies and topic changing.

[SuzieQ49]

walcott was in his prime at 38 when he beat charles and gave marciano a helluva fight!


ill take a prime walcott over a well past his prime frazier




32 year old charles fought perhaps the greatest fight of his career vs marciano. charles was still a great fighter when he fought marciano in there 1st fight. 2nd fight was a onesided massacre besides the freak cut.

charles was still plenty dangerous leading up to the marciano title fight. watch the coley wallace and satterfield fights, charles looked great!


ill take a 32 year old charles of the 1st marciano fight over a well past it joe frazier of the manilla fight. frazier was never the same after 1971.


frazier of manilla was a lot more past it than charles of 1st marciano. just watch the minilla fight, you can easily notice how gone that version of frazier is.

slow, with shot reflexes, overweight and well past his prime, nothing compared to a vintage Frazier is an insult to both Joe and Ali who had to dig very deep to beat Frazier

NO, it shows how great both warriors are. ali was well well past it as well. the thrilla and manilla is about two well past there prime fighters giving it all they had and spilling out all there guts and glory to win. the fact both were able to display that much heart, stamina, and will makes the achievement incredible considering how far gone each fighter was.


the manilla ali was nothing compared to peak ali

manilla frazier was nothing compared to peak frazier

Frazier was past his peak but if he looked slow and shot in Manilla it was in large part due to Ali who likely fought the guttiest performance of his career that day.

no frazier was long gone, its very noticeable. ali was also well past it.

frazier in fact, was never the same after FOTC in 1971

Now, SuzyQ49. Before answering to the following questions please put down your copy of ROCK MARCIANO BIOGRAPHY OF A FIRST SON By Everett M. Skehan. It's plainly obvious that your so-called research amounts to continuous verbatim rip-offs and outright plagarism from this book. I want your opinions.

of course u decide to throw out personel attacks, because you can't win arguements by talking rationally.

you are a boxrec hunter



I do give my opinions, fact is anything i say, u accuse of plagirism.

so with u, its impossible to have opinions

Liston lost to Marshall in just his 8th fight while Marciano fought Lowry in his 21st and 30th fights. You are taking these fights out of context. Marciano was a more experienced professional fighter by the time he fought Lowry than Liston was when he fought Marshall.

marciano had just training with goldman when he fought lowry the 1st time. goldman had only been in his corner for about
5-7 fights at that point. marciano had been training only for a couple months with goldman when he took on a highly experienced journeyman like lowry

liston had been training for over a year with his trainer and was far more prepared entering the marshall fight than marciano was entering the lowry fight.

And on what basis are you concluding that Lowry was as good as Marshall? Marshall defeated and later floored one of the top ten greatest heavyweights of all time. Who was the best fighter Lowry defeated? Would Marciano beat Lowry in his 8th fight? If not maybe Marshall beats Marciano.

liston was far more trained by his 8th fight than marciano was in his 8th fight. goldman hadnt even begun training marciano yet in his 8th fight.



NOW REMEMBER WERE TALKING ENTERING THE 1ST LISTON FIGHT::

entering the first liston fight, marshall was an 18-5-2 journeyman who had NEVER beaten a contender in his life.

the best fighter marshall ever beat before he fought liston was 16-8 wesbury bascom.



tiger ted entering the 1st marciano fight was 57-48 and far more experienced than marshall. ted was also rated higher entering the marciano fight than marshall was entering the 1st liston fight.

BEFORE the 1st marciano fight, lowry beat billy blackjack fox a ranked light-H, and he drew with top 10 ranked heavyweight lee savold


so not only was tiger ted lowry more experienced and higher rated entering the marciano fight than marshall entering liston fight, tiger also beat better fighters than marshall beat before the first marciano and liston fights.


therefore, entering the 1st liston and marciano fights, tiger ted lowry was considered the better fighter than marshall.

incidently, lowry was basically a carbon copy of marshall. both fought with the same style and both were clowns and cuties.



you cant compare liston and marcianos 8th fight, becuause liston had far more training than marciano did entering there 8th fights.



also what makes u think liston could get by 26-0 eddie ross and 15-1 bobby quinn in his 3rd and 4th fights if liston in his 4th fight barely squeaked a split decision over a 5-1 fighter?

You keep referring to Marciano's circumstances. That's not the argument here. If Marciano was an unschooled amateur early in his career that doesn't change the calibre of his opposition. Nor does it change the fact that Liston, Tyson and Frazier were not unschooled amateurs and were better ability wise than Marciano was at the beginning of his career and thus would have beaten Marciano's early competition. After all if an unschooled amateur with little formal training could beat them, does it not make sense that Liston, Frazier and Tyson who were not unschooled amateurs would have also?
[/B]

better ability? what makes u say that? how did a non trained, unschooled frazir, liston, tyson have more ability than rocky? please explain

After all if an unschooled amateur with little formal training could beat them, does it not make sense that Liston, Frazier and Tyson who were not unschooled amateurs would have also?

liston in his 4th fight barely squeaked a split decision over a 5-1 fighter. marciano in his 4th fight beat a 26-0 fighter. so as u see, liston was very vunerable.


even with a ton of experience in amatuers and lots of world class training, frazier still was dropped early in his career by michael bruce and practically lost to bonavena.


frazier was more experienced and far more schooled entering bonavena fight than marciano was entering first lastarza fight. i also think lastarza was better than bonavena. theres a good chance lastarza would beat a green frazier if bonavena could.

What is more likely to happen. Getting struck by lightning twice or SuzieQ49 saying anything unflattering about a Marciano or Louis opponent?

once again u refer to personel attacks. making ****** jokes like these isnt going to make ur argument any better or make people like u any better.






funny how any post u make rearding marciano, its usually derogatory or against marciano. its clear u dont think highly of him at all. im guessing he is not in ur top 10.

[smasher]

Dear SuzieQ49,

So, Little Nicky Gamble has decided to bring up the same old redundant arguments that I have directly dealt with since this tedious thread began.

Firstly, don't criticize me for personal attacks when you continously refer to me as a boxrec hunter, despite the fact that you are the one on their forum posting as brocktonblockbuster and then proceed to quote records, ages, prior fights blah blah blah, as if I am to believe these facts are miraculously stored away in your 18 year old brainwashed pea brain.

Your opinions have nothing to do with analytical breakdowns of fighting styles, simple logic, or relative competition instead chooosing to compare opponents records and rankings. Big deal. A 2nd rated fighter today wouldn't crack the top 10 in the 70's. ****, the champions of today wouldn't crack the top 10. Rankings are relative to the quality at the time and despite what Daddy has told you, Marciano's era was one of the weaker ones.

In one sentance you refer to Liston as far more trained than Marciano early in his career then later refer to Liston as untrained and unschooled and question how he could have had more ability than Marciano, then it's once again back to Liston had far more training than Marciano. My ****in' head is already spinning and your just getting started.

Light-heavyweight Bobby Ross was 26-0 was he? Name the 26 opponents he allegedly fought. That's a bogus inflated record and you know it. Where is the record of his 26 opponents, or are you only going by the 'word' of the promoter.

Bobby Quinn was 15-1 was he? Name the 15 opponents he allegedly fought. Another bogus record inflated by a promoter out to sell tickets. You've never seen these guys fight so stop referring to them. They never amounted to anything. I guess Peter McNeely or Butterbean would have starched Liston because their early records were more impressive than Liston's early opposition. Holy ****, I may have just planted another seed in your impressionable mind.

Yeah Lastarza was better than Bonevena. Based on what? Lastarza was cut, beaten and later floored by 12-8-2 light-heavyweight Rocky Jones. But Jones had dynamite in his mitts. He packed a wallop! 7 KO's in 28 career fights! Wow! And these fights were within a year before Lastarza fought Marciano for the title. I'll take Bonevena's wins over Zora Folley, George Chuvalo, Leotis Martin and Manuel Ramos as well as tough close and competitive fights with Ali and Frazier over anything Lastarza ever accomplished.

Once again you dodged the Dempsey, Louis, Ali, Foreman, Holmes scenario.

Your silence speaks volumes.

Now go to bed you have high school wrestling practice in the morning.

[SuzieQ49]

Your opinions have nothing to do with analytical breakdowns of fighting styles

yes I do,


however its you my friend who has that problem. your a boxechunter


u use lastarzas loss to rocky jones against him, but u fail to mention in the rematch lastarza virtually shutout rocky jones.

bonavena had trouble with speedy master boxers like lastarza. see the ellis fight. I think lastarza would outbox bonavena and win a close decision. lastarza was possibly the best defensive heavyweight fighter of that era, and his counterpunching skills will give bonavena fits.



folley was past his prime when he fought oscar, chuvalo and martin were good wins.


bonavena might have nearly beat frazier in the 1st fight, but lastarza did the same with marciano.


lastarza in his prime beat everyone he faced EXCEPT rocky marciano.

the reason why lastarza had such few fights against top contenders outside of marciano was because of many different reasons but it all related back to his manager jimmy fats deangelo. if u ever want to hear the whole story, just ask.


I think lastarza is the better fight on film. he has better all around boxing skills and defense than bonavena. lastarza has better movement and his faster than bonavena. bonavena is stronger and more powerful, but his flaws play right into lastarzas strengths.



boxrec editors told me theres a very strong chance EDDIE ross is 26-0, and they just havnt found his other fights yet.

ross reported coming into the marciano fight 26-0(23) in fact promoter sam silverman confirmed it. ross record is simply incomplete

Once again you dodged the Dempsey, Louis, Ali, Foreman, Holmes scenario.

what do u want to know?





in ur opinion marcianos era was one of the weaker ones, in my opinion it isnt.

[smasher]

your a boxechunter


boxrec editors told me theres a very strong chance EDDIE ross is 26-0, and they just havnt found his other fights yet.

I'm the boxrec hunter and your the guy on their forums and speaking with the editors. Anyway, a very strong chance Eddie ROSS is 26-0 does not mean he is. Go with what is documented unless prove otherwise.

The rest of the debate centres around I think/you think. Seeing how you call yourself SuzieQ49 and BrocktonBlockbuster any discussion with you regarding Rocky Marciano will undoubtedly reveal your strong bias. I've yet to hear you say anything less than complimentary regarding anything about Marciano or his opponents so any further discussion regarding this topic is a waste of time. Like Marciano, this thread is dead.

[SuzieQ49]

i rate marciano 5th greatest heavyweight of all time, so obviousely i think he had flaws to his career. if i rate marciano 5th, how am i strong biased?

the IBRO rated marciano 5th greatest heavyweight, are they bias?


fact is, i never have to talk badly about marcianos opponents because his era is always being persecuted and being critizized because people dont know dip**** about the era or marcianos opponents.

marciano= most critisized heavyweight of all time by far




if u read other posts, u would see one of my biggest critisims agaisnt marciano in terms of accomplishments is he did not beat a good range of quanity. compared to other heavyweight champs, he did not beat a solid list of depth. of