Most skilled defensive boxers

[soul_survivor]

Where would you rank these fighters as the most skilled defensive fighters?

Pernell Whitaker
Willie Pep
Nicolino Locche
Jersey Joe Walcott
Miguel Canto
Miguel Lora
Sumbu Kalambay
James Toney
Hilario Zapata
George Benton
Marlon Starling
Wilfred Benitez
Bernard Hopkins
Floyd Mayweather Jr.
Winky Wright

When ever I see rankings of defensive fighters, Ali is always omitted, why is that?

I know Ali had a great all round game and much of his career in the 70s he got into wars and toe to toe scraps but at his absolute physical peak, 63-67, he was so quick, so fleet footed and so smooth, he was barely hit. Yes there were a couple of KDs here and there and swarming guys like Chuvalo had limited success but against most of his opponents, he was untouchable. Shouldn't Ali at the very least be mentioned? In fact, defensively he was better than the likes of Hopkins, Wright, Starling, Benitez and even Toney, heck Toney for most of his career post RJJ took huge shots to his very good chin. Ali post-prime was more elusive.

Out of the lot you've listed, two guys at their absolute peak were the best defensively that I can find video on. Whitaker and Pep. Period.

[Dariusz]

From what I can see on old films, Nicolino Locche, no contest. His opponents must have felt horribly gibbetted.

[IronDanHamza]

@Irondan and Joeseph

After spending a few days thinking about this, i do agree that my initial reasoning was a bit flawed,,, I seemed to point out all of floyd's bad moments but then not the same for pernell and toney...
I fully realized that, so i will totally admit my reasoning was not very solid...

I still do think that floyd, is not the GOAT of defense or barely top 5,, he is in the conversation but not one of my top 3 or 4 guys ever...

Simply put, Floyd, toney, pernell, all are great defenders,, but toney and pernell did things i have never seen before and have yet to see again,, They had the wow factor, while floyd is a great defender, best of his era or tie with hopkins, but floyd, like hopkins never WOWed me with their defense,, great defenders but more textbook than anything with alot of footwork and movement,, great defenders just not mind-blowing like pernell or toney

Understand what you're saying but just don't agree.

I think Mayweather is so much better defensively than Toney.

Mayweather probably get's hit less than anyone in history to be honest. That's a lot down to his safety first style (In the second half of his career) but still, tells a lot.

[joseph5620]

Understand what you're saying but just don't agree.

I think Mayweather is so much better defensively than Toney.

Mayweather probably get's hit less than anyone in history to be honest. That's a lot down to his safety first style (In the second half of his career) but still, tells a lot.

Mayweather is much better defensively than Toney, I agree. It's not a difficult choice for me.

[MDPopescu]

I'd put Gene Tunney on the list.....he was very elusive for 19 of the 20 rounds when he fought Dempsey.

Prime Ali belongs on the list even if it were down to reflexes.

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[IronDanHamza]

When ever I see rankings of defensive fighters, Ali is always omitted, why is that?

I know Ali had a great all round game and much of his career in the 70s he got into wars and toe to toe scraps but at his absolute physical peak, 63-67, he was so quick, so fleet footed and so smooth, he was barely hit. Yes there were a couple of KDs here and there and swarming guys like Chuvalo had limited success but against most of his opponents, he was untouchable. Shouldn't Ali at the very least be mentioned? In fact, defensively he was better than the likes of Hopkins, Wright, Starling, Benitez and even Toney, heck Toney for most of his career post RJJ took huge shots to his very good chin. Ali post-prime was more elusive.

Out of the lot you've listed, two guys at their absolute peak were the best defensively that I can find video on. Whitaker and Pep. Period.

Ali get's the Roy Jones treatment.

Both are different level athletes who's natural talent are out of his world.

Neither of them barely got touched in their primes but because their technical abilities aren't as "Sound" per say, as say, Pernell Whitaker for example, they aren't considered good defensively.

Especially when the began to slow down they got hit a lot more.

Because the idea is Ali or Jones didn't fight the "right" way, or the way your'e "Supposed to fight" or "By the book". If you follow me.

But really what is the "right" way to fight? Surely the effective way is the right way?

Either way, it's an argument I've had time and time over.

Roy Jones barely got touched in his prime. Surely that's what defense is about? Being able to avoid punches.

Both Jones (Prime) and Ali (Prime) were close to untouchable. They didn't fight conventionally and had a lot of technical holes at times and broke most of the rules and did the "You shouldn't do that" things like put their hands down, leap in with shots etc but their ability and talent allowed them to get away with it.

There's guys like Harold Johnson who's one the best technical fighters I've seen who does absolute everything by the book and whilst having a very good defense he got hit a lot more than Ali and Roy Jones did. So who's better defensively? The one doing the "right" things or the one getting hit less? The one getting hit less surely.

[billeau2]

Well you can say that exact same thing for Whitaker.

Most of the guys he shined against were come forward fighters.

You're saying Mayweather's not an ATG defender because he got tagged against fighters.

But Whitaker got tagged, he got tagged against Mayweather, Hurtado, McGirt, Riveria - Hardly ATG calibur opposition there and he got tagged a lot in those fights. Is he not an ATG defender then?

Nelson tagged him, can't you say "When Whitaker fought a great fighter he got tagged" ?

Guys like Mosley, Judah, Hatton, they barely touched Mayweather.

Mosley landed like 2 meaningful punches the whole fight!!! And you're using him as an example as a guy who hit Mayweather a lot.

That tells me how good Mayweather is defensively that he's an example.

Judah barely landed a glove from Rounds 5-12 and in the first 4 he didn't land that many clean punches.

Hatton barely landed any clean punches, Cotto didn't land much other than the jab.

Other than Castillo in the first fight there isn't a single fighter Mayweather has fought who consistently landed clean punches.

That's an ATG defender to me.

To be fair the Mayweather fight was an aboration. Sweet Pea was out for blood and didn't care if Mayweather tagged him or not. he was uncharacteristic in that fight in so many ways.

Mayweather junior is indeed as good defensively but it is because Floyd is such a good cou ter puncher. Whitaker was simply untouchable at his best.

[billeau2]

@Irondan and Joeseph

After spending a few days thinking about this, i do agree that my initial reasoning was a bit flawed,,, I seemed to point out all of floyd's bad moments but then not the same for pernell and toney...
I fully realized that, so i will totally admit my reasoning was not very solid...

I still do think that floyd, is not the GOAT of defense or barely top 5,, he is in the conversation but not one of my top 3 or 4 guys ever...

Simply put, Floyd, toney, pernell, all are great defenders,, but toney and pernell did things i have never seen before and have yet to see again,, They had the wow factor, while floyd is a great defender, best of his era or tie with hopkins, but floyd, like hopkins never WOWed me with their defense,, great defenders but more textbook than anything with alot of footwork and movement,, great defenders just not mind-blowing like pernell or toney

In my opinion the confusion comes because technically counter punching is not a defensive action. It is attacking an attack. I am not talking about when a guy throws a ounch and has completed the attack and is then hit back because to me this is not counter punching. Floyd is a bona fide...if you watch the slo mo you see him hit guys as they are extending into their punch.

Whitaker was pure defense. Ali was pure defense...the ability to virtually avoid or roll with anything thrown at you.

[billeau2]

Understand what you're saying but just don't agree.

I think Mayweather is so much better defensively than Toney.

Mayweather probably get's hit less than anyone in history to be honest. That's a lot down to his safety first style (In the second half of his career) but still, tells a lot.

Thats because Toney is a different kind of counter puncher...He gets hit but rolls with the blow to deliver his counter. He may get hit but he is not getting hit solid.

[billeau2]

Mayweather is much better defensively than Toney, I agree. It's not a difficult choice for me.

Mayweather never faced the punchers that Toney did guys, least not later, counter punching excellent Mayweather.... cept for Cotto who did tag him a whittle bit! Michael Nun was exceptional in every regard. Toney rolled his shots which is why he was able to get to him late. And Toney countered punchers in a division where one screvv up and it was lights out.