The most skilled fighters?

[cja07007]

Greg Haugen. Short, not particularly fast or powerful, but he definitely knew what he was doing in there. Always impressed with how cagey he was when I watch one of his fights. Think he had a lot of amateur fights growing up.

[McGoorty]

Before you guys start throwing out names, I want you to follow this criterion.

It has to be strictly about fighters that reached the world level and did well almost solely due to their technical skill and ring-smarts.

If the fighter has more than one typical/average world class trait, compared to their weight class, in the chin, speed, power or overall physical ability department, they can’t be proposed. This also includes fighters with ridiculous reflexes/radar (which may at least be as much raw talent as learned skill), for example Roy Jones or Muhammad Ali.

Feel free to post as many suggestions as you want, and if you don’t agree with a suggestion, explain why.

/greeh

I think the most skilled boxer of all time is Willie Pep.... Daylight second.

[McGoorty]

going back a long way I would say Billy Graham nothing flashy just sound technical skills which cause many champs to avoid him. I also believe he held an amateur win over Robinson who was close to unbeatable.

Billy Graham is a pretty smart name to throw out there, he looks so good on film and by all accounts opponents said he was brilliant in the ring.

[greeh]

Gilberto Roman

Constantly one of the most underrated Mexican fighters.
A top-notch textbook stylist that slanted more towards pure boxing than box-punching. He preferably fought at long and mid-range, but he also had a good inside game, as opposed to the more praised Ricardo Lopez.

His excellent multi-directional footwork coupled with his great jab gave him fine out-boxing tools. I would say in a technical polite fight, he is a tough obstacle for anyone at the weight.

He had no notable physical gifts. His chin was decent at best, not particularly fast and lacked punching power, but his precision gave him stoppages against lower-tier opposition.

In my opinion, he is the best super flyweight of all-time.

/greeh

[billeau2]

Floyd Mayweather and even perhaps Andrey Ward.

Mayweather: First lets separate the perception from the facts. Mayweather may have really great reflexes but....its hard to tell because if you watch him carefully he uses timing and angles impecably. In fact I would argue that he sets to move off line BEFORE he even completes punching, particularly countering the guy. This tendency is why Mayweather seldom gets hit with return fire and why he is not a combo puncher.

So reflexes? maybe outstanding

Speed. Mayweather is perceived as being fast when in fact? he is quick.I.e. his punches are perfectly technical marvels of straighness and economy of movement. His actual hand speed is not nearly as fast as a guy with great handspeed like Judah (whom he had trouble with in account of the speed difference). mayweather also throws his punches with precision timing and accuracy BUT again...his handspeed is hardly outstanding.

heart/Strength. Mayweather wants to win but he is not known for a willingness to engage that we can all agree on...However his physical strenght is in fact very good...is it outstanding? I would argue YES but....it is so because he trains it...I do not think it is natural as it is with a guy like Hagler or Foreman, or even a guy like Salidad.

I believe Mayweather is a product of old school physics. Being around the craft being taught proper technique and ring generalship by some of the best. I think it is one of the secrets of the people that really know how important time and great technique are (people like Ray) that Mayweather is not necessarily a natural talent. Floyd is simply not deficient in any category and might have extraordinary reaction time....MIGHT. As a martial artist I can avoid punches due to training and I see Mayweather using the same technique to do so (Tai Sabaki...body angling). If Mayweather was unnatural he could throw combos and not one punch before evading....Like Roy Jones junior who truly had unnatural speed and reaction time. But Floyd can't do this!


Ward:

Like Mayweather Ward is the product of slow cooking. Smoked over the smoldering fires of Oakland with his same wise trainer. Ward's hooks are thrown from an angle that makes them what we call blind techniques....often (see Dawson fight) the guy never sees them and reacts too late. Ward is technically gifted but his speed, reaction time, power is hardly outstanding. Many guys are faster, many guys have superhuman reaction where Ward uses economical footwork to cut the ring.... Ward like Hopkins also uses something most fighters have forgotten...how to fight inside. This gives him a tremendous capacity to take even other naturally talented fighters (like Dawson) and put them in a scenerio they have not trained for.

Ward is the product of smarts and not athletic ability.

Ward and Mayweather both like the fighters of yore were educated in the basics and brught along slowly and intelligently.

Think about it guys.....

[McGoorty]

Not sure if the thread is for fighters who got to greatness without natural ability doing it for them then I would count Mayweather out of the running and I would have to take Willie Pep who I chose out of the running too. Mayweather may have less pure natural talent than the great Pep but he surely has plenty of natural born talent and as for Pep, I have never seen a more natural talent, he also worked incredibly hard to achieve greatness. Floyd Mayweather is no Jeff "hit man" Harding, now there is a guy who got a title with just a tiny bit of natural and a massive dose of guts and hard work. Floyd ain't anywhere near my favorite fighter but I wouldn't insult him by calling him a born crab.

[greeh]

Mayweather: First lets separate the perception from the facts. Mayweather may have really great reflexes but....its hard to tell because if you watch him carefully he uses timing and angles impecably. In fact I would argue that he sets to move off line BEFORE he even completes punching, particularly countering the guy. This tendency is why Mayweather seldom gets hit with return fire and why he is not a combo puncher.

So reflexes? maybe outstanding

Speed. Mayweather is perceived as being fast when in fact? he is quick.I.e. his punches are perfectly technical marvels of straighness and economy of movement. His actual hand speed is not nearly as fast as a guy with great handspeed like Judah (whom he had trouble with in account of the speed difference). mayweather also throws his punches with precision timing and accuracy BUT again...his handspeed is hardly outstanding.

heart/Strength. Mayweather wants to win but he is not known for a willingness to engage that we can all agree on...However his physical strenght is in fact very good...is it outstanding? I would argue YES but....it is so because he trains it...I do not think it is natural as it is with a guy like Hagler or Foreman, or even a guy like Salidad.

I believe Mayweather is a product of old school physics. Being around the craft being taught proper technique and ring generalship by some of the best. I think it is one of the secrets of the people that really know how important time and great technique are (people like Ray) that Mayweather is not necessarily a natural talent. Floyd is simply not deficient in any category and might have extraordinary reaction time....MIGHT. As a martial artist I can avoid punches due to training and I see Mayweather using the same technique to do so (Tai Sabaki...body angling). If Mayweather was unnatural he could throw combos and not one punch before evading....Like Roy Jones junior who truly had unnatural speed and reaction time. But Floyd can't do this!

Are you really trying to convince me that Floyd Mayweather didn’t have, and still has even though it is not as insane as before, world class physical traits?

Watch him when he was younger, he had both incredible reflexes and world class speed. Even though he hasn't got hit much, he clearly has a good chin. Not an average one, or just slightly better.

Sure, he is a very technically skilled operator and a very smart fighter, but he simply has/had far too many world class traits for the criterion I set.

/greeh

[billeau2]

Are you really trying to convince me that Floyd Mayweather didn’t have, and still has even though it is not as insane as before, world class physical traits?

Watch him when he was younger, he had both incredible reflexes and world class speed. Even though he hasn't got hit much, he clearly has a good chin. Not an average one, or just slightly better.

Sure, he is a very technically skilled operator and a very smart fighter, but he simply has/had far too many world class traits for the criterion I set.

/greeh

I don't think so. I think he has technical excellence which is not natural ability. He may have been fast and perhaps reflexes might be the ONE trait...remember you said we could have one trait.

Just do me one favor and watch carefully. Mayweather has incredible technique. It is untelegraphed and straight as an arrow. This takes practice but the quickness it facilitates is not the same as raw speed. Again take two seminally great fighters of this generation Floyd and Jones. Jones has all natural ability, speed, reflexes, etc. When he beat Toney, a gifted technician one can see how these natural abilitites colesce. Mayweather by comparison is technically almost perfect.

Most people assume Mayweather is a natural without watching carefully for the traits that make him great. They also forget about the times Mayweather has been temporarily challenged....why? because Mayweather asjusts to his opponent. Mayweather has trained out any weaknesses that can be exploited.

I take this thread as a serious discussion and as such I would encourage you to watch and observe carefully with no pre-judices about Mayweather.

[New England]

Ricardo Lopez was the first name that came to mind.

Donald Curry... for a very brief time period.

lopez is one of the hardest punching little men of all time...

[New England]

I don't think so. I think he has technical excellence which is not natural ability. He may have been fast and perhaps reflexes might be the ONE trait...remember you said we could have one trait.

Just do me one favor and watch carefully. Mayweather has incredible technique. It is untelegraphed and straight as an arrow. This takes practice but the quickness it facilitates is not the same as raw speed. Again take two seminally great fighters of this generation Floyd and Jones. Jones has all natural ability, speed, reflexes, etc. When he beat Toney, a gifted technician one can see how these natural abilitites colesce. Mayweather by comparison is technically almost perfect.

Most people assume Mayweather is a natural without watching carefully for the traits that make him great. They also forget about the times Mayweather has been temporarily challenged....why? because Mayweather asjusts to his opponent. Mayweather has trained out any weaknesses that can be exploited.

I take this thread as a serious discussion and as such I would encourage you to watch and observe carefully with no pre-judices about Mayweather.

mayweahter is a highly schooled boxer with a finely tuned style, but he has a slew of gifts. he is lightning fast of hand and upper body, and in his youth his feet were some of the best. his reflexes, as you alluded to, are some of the best you will ever see. instincts in boxing are learned / taught and drilled, but the ability of the mind to react quickly is something with which you are born.