A question about Rocky Marciano

[greeh]

So, we're gonna play the "smart-ass" game. Okay sure.

1.Jersey Joe Walcott was the Heavyweight Champion of the World (no alphabet titles then) when Rocky Marciano beat him.

2. Foreman, Lewis, Tyson, Bowe, Tua, and the Klitshko's never fought anyone like Rocky either. Foreman would probably win. Lewis would likely lose. Tyson would lose, Bowe would definitely lose, as would Tua....and both Klitschkos would have a hard time because of their freakish height .....they would really have trouble finding such a small man....oh, and probably lose.

3. Moore hadn't been 150 lbs for probably 15 years at that point and had been knocking out and beating the ranking contenders for several years....such as Nino Valdez, who would have met your criteria for a "true" heavyweight. Huh, go figure...real heavy gets beat by real middle.

4. No, you didn't. I threw that tidbit of knowledge in for free....because it f'n matters

5. It's not my fault that your head's so far up your ass that you can see your lack of wisdom teeth from the back side. My post was a composite answer to your question. What the issue is here is not whether or not I answered your post as much as it is you were not going to accept any response that didn't agree with your predispositioned hypothesis, which, typically enough, is as limited as you are exposing it to be.

Numbers and stats work in baseball and record keeping....not in the ring, dude. You can say this guy's such and such and so on, so he's gonna squash this little man like a bug; but it doesn't always work that way. The street goes two way. You can argue all day that a little guy like Marciano wouldn't stand a chance in today's division and you still have nothing to base your opinion on because there's nobody in the division (or below it) like Rocky Marciano. If there were, you wouldn't have even bothered sitting down at your keyboard and going fishing.

So, keep on spouting off your bull**** stats that mean nothing when the bell rings, and I'll keep on laughing at your pathetic ignorance of the reality of this game I love.


....incidentally, I'm not even that big of a Marciano fan numbnuts.

/greeh

[K-DOGG]

K-DOGG how could you say all the big modern HW champs would lose to Rocky lol.

They wouldn't be ALLOWED to KO Rocky today and that's to protect Rocky, not them!

My opinion is based on the in-game and Rocky's pressure. Lewis, for example, gave a helluva an account of himself against a washed up, ill-prepared, fat Tyson; but would it have been the same story had Tyson not gone to prison and fought Lewis in, say, 1993 or 1994? If you give Mike a shot at beating Lewis under those circumstances, you have to give Rocky the possibility.

Rocky wasn't even in the same zip-code as Mike on speed and probably not on power; but he was far superior on tenacity. Mike showed that when pushed, he folded. Sure, you could argue the Douglas fight was an anomaly because Mike wasn't prepared for the fight, and I'll give you that. And, yes, Mike fared well against Ruddock while going the distance; but Ruddock was essentially a one-armed bandit by that stage of his career. (helluva one arm; but not a complete picture), which enabled Mike to hang with him....and a real surprise to me he didn't finish him off. Kudos to Razor for his toughness.

My point is simply this. Rocky was in your chest, was harder to hit than many believe, did hit hard enough to hurt any man over 200 Lbs, even if it was only accumulatively. I believe he could have beaten today's modern heavies due to his sufficient power, deceptive elusiveness, and pit-bull tenacity. That pressure will wear most fighters down eventually and cause a collapse. I think Lewis could have succumbed to that pressure, provided one of those uppercuts didn't kayo Rock. (a possibility I'll acknowledge). Likewise, I feel the same way about the other fighters. The Klitschkos are not used to fighting a guy who's 5'10", like Mike or Rocky and that means when combined with their respective defenses, a lot of shots will miss....leaving opportunities for counters.......and bodywork which chops down the tree from the inside.

Tua was a dangerous puncher; but not as active, nor as skilled as Rocky. Bowe took too many shots; he had a horrible defense, thus the shortened career. And the best fighter he fought, arguably, was Evander Holyfield: a fighter who weighed 205 in the first fight and barely over 215 for the last. Did Bowe beat him, sure; but he took a helluva beating along the way. Rocky was shorter and harder to hit and would be pounding on Bowe's body more than Evander did. Could one of Bowe's uppercuts do the job? Sure, anything's possible. I just think the pressure would break Bowe down.

Anyway, those reasons are why I believe it is a definite possibility.

[Tommo1]

Well without launching a huge counter I'll just say I do not agree, you know I'd be surprised if Rocky lasted a single round, he just isn't strong enough and some of these guys would never let Rocky that close in the first place.

On the Tyson comparison, sure a prime Tyson may well take out Lewis but gosh to say Rocky is anywhere near Tyson's calibre is baffling imo. Tyson would immediately KO rocky.

But I have to respect when your pushed you always do your man justice with your assessments. You have far greater faith in your man than I do and you already declared his handicaps and the others strengths. I'm against but fair enough.

I must say though did Rocky perform this way against anybody like the guys mentioned? Of course he didn't. He never fought a HW who wasn't a complete bum. So you are taking this purely on faith in his perceived abilities against inferior opponents.

It is easy to look like an eagle when you soar with turkeys! Remember that!

[K-DOGG]

Well without launching a huge counter I'll just say I do not agree, you know I'd be surprised if Rocky lasted a single round, he just isn't strong enough and some of these guys would never let Rocky that close in the first place.

On the Tyson comparison, sure a prime Tyson may well take out Lewis but gosh to say Rocky is anywhere near Tyson's calibre is baffling imo. Tyson would immediately KO rocky.

But I have to respect when your pushed you always do your man justice with your assessments. You have far greater faith in your man than I do and you already declared his handicaps and the others strengths. I'm against but fair enough.

I must say though did Rocky perform this way against anybody like the guys mentioned? Of course he didn't. He never fought a HW who wasn't a complete bum. So you are taking this purely on faith in his perceived abilities against inferior opponents.

It is easy to look like an eagle when you soar with turkeys! Remember that!

Couldn't let that go. Carmine Vingo, Rex Layne, Roland LaStarza, Walcott, Charles, and Moore were not bums. They were quality heavies of the day and three held world titles. aka, not "bums".

[Ray Corso]

It amazes me just how ****** some people on this forum are!!!!!!

The Heavyweight Division has NO weight limits!!! You can weigh 145lbs and fight at Heavyweight do you understand that???? You dumb azz *****es!!!

The weight classes after Middle were 175 Limit for LtHvys thats the END of Limitations!!!

Tommo your insulting some great competitors like Ezzaed Charles and Walcott by calling these great fighters and men bums. Your a disrespectfull fool!
You always talk about size well Tyson at 5'9" would give away some height to Rock at 5'11" -6' if you think Rocky is less a puncher thats fine by me but you should read up on what fighters, managers, matchmakers, promotors thought of his power! Another words listen and learn from people who actually know these things instead of your assessments that are based on......Nothing! You don't know ****! Hard hitters and heavy handed fighters have NOTHING to do with how much someone weighs get that through your shallow head, moron!!...........lunch is ready, go read and learn something about Sandy Sadler or Ike Williams and report back in a week! Ray

[theproof]

I am not a fan of the real rock BUT one thing he had was heart ! today fighters say I was over trained, I broke my hand in the second round, I wasn't focused etc but this guy just kept coming no matter what. a refuse to lose attitude which is missing these days. when I see a fighter with a 29-13 record. they could quit but they keep fighting not only for money. some bros just like to fight. some fighters just have that no quit mode but not only to survive but to keep at it to break an opponents will. rock would break down most todays heavys. forget the weight advantage it is just people today are bigger. drugs, genetics or not. out of all the champs in this era. who could take punishment 7-9 rounds and pull it off ? name one ? a fighter has a closed eye or he is bleeding or tired etc and quit or the corner stops it to live for another day. the rock didn't come to play he came to work. I favor the boxer but when I see a brawler, bleeder, take shots but not get discouraged etc I was always worried. " damb what do I have to do " fact is if all fights were for free we would have other fighters holding the belts. just my opinion.

[joseph5620]

It amazes me just how ****** some people on this forum are!!!!!!

The Heavyweight Division has NO weight limits!!! You can weigh 145lbs and fight at Heavyweight do you understand that???? You dumb azz *****es!!!

The weight classes after Middle were 175 Limit for LtHvys thats the END of Limitations!!!

Tommo your insulting some great competitors like Ezzaed Charles and Walcott by calling these great fighters and men bums. Your a disrespectfull fool!
You always talk about size well Tyson at 5'9" would give away some height to Rock at 5'11" -6' if you think Rocky is less a puncher thats fine by me but you should read up on what fighters, managers, matchmakers, promotors thought of his power! Another words listen and learn from people who actually know these things instead of your assessments that are based on......Nothing! You don't know ****! Hard hitters and heavy handed fighters have NOTHING to do with how much someone weighs get that through your shallow head, moron!!...........lunch is ready, go read and learn something about Sandy Sadler or Ike Williams and report back in a week! Ray

No you couldn't.

[K-DOGG]

I am not a fan of the real rock BUT one thing he had was heart ! today fighters say I was over trained, I broke my hand in the second round, I wasn't focused etc but this guy just kept coming no matter what. a refuse to lose attitude which is missing these days. when I see a fighter with a 29-13 record. they could quit but they keep fighting not only for money. some bros just like to fight. some fighters just have that no quit mode but not only to survive but to keep at it to break an opponents will. rock would break down most todays heavys. forget the weight advantage it is just people today are bigger. drugs, genetics or not. out of all the champs in this era. who could take punishment 7-9 rounds and pull it off ? name one ? a fighter has a closed eye or he is bleeding or tired etc and quit or the corner stops it to live for another day. the rock didn't come to play he came to work. I favor the boxer but when I see a brawler, bleeder, take shots but not get discouraged etc I was always worried. " damb what do I have to do " fact is if all fights were for free we would have other fighters holding the belts. just my opinion.

[Tommo1]

Ray I never called Walcott and Charles bums, K-DOGG misinterpreted. They were not REAL HW's.

Whatever they were they weren't HW's as we describe them today.

Power is based on many things but all things equal, weight DOES increase power, a major reason for divisions. How can someone apparently as prominent in boxing as yourself not atleast admit this is true!

And no they could not fight at HW unless they met that limit of there day! Today that limit is 200lbs. Were they to fight quality opponents above this weight today, chances are they would get beat up! It's just how it is!

I believe in the real world facts, if you look at all the statistics, sometimes the small guy beats the big guy because it is boxing not bodybuilding. But statistically the heftier opponent has the advantage which increases as the difference does. Skills trump this but skill levels being comparable as happens comparing top level boxers, the weight becomes very important.

Your favourites Ali and Louis know all about this, learn from them. They outweighed most of their opponents!

Wladimir Klitschko for example outweighs only HALF his and Holy and Mike less than. So there must be some other quality that keeps boxers like this winning... QUALITY!

[GeneralZod]

Ray I never called Walcott and Charles bums, K-DOGG misinterpreted. They were not REAL HW's.

Whatever they were they weren't HW's as we describe them today.

Power is based on many things but all things equal, weight DOES increase power, a major reason for divisions. How can someone apparently as prominent in boxing as yourself not atleast admit this is true!

And no they could not fight at HW unless they met that limit of there day! Today that limit is 200lbs. Were they to fight quality opponents above this weight today, chances are they would get beat up! It's just how it is!

I believe in the real world facts, if you look at all the statistics, sometimes the small guy beats the big guy because it is boxing not bodybuilding. But statistically the heftier opponent has the advantage which increases as the difference does. Skills trump this but skill levels being comparable as happens comparing top level boxers, the weight becomes very important.

Your favourites Ali and Louis know all about this, learn from them. They outweighed most of their opponents!

Wladimir Klitschko for example outweighs only HALF his and Holy and Mike less than. So there must be some other quality that keeps boxers like this winning... QUALITY!

Oh really?

I must say though did Rocky perform this way against anybody like the guys mentioned? Of course he didn't. He never fought a HW who wasn't a complete bum.

Of course he didn't. He never fought a HW who wasn't a complete bum.

You didn't?

So, what you're saying is two men who achieved being the best in the heavyweight division at one point, weren't really the heavyweights or even real champions because of a weight standard that changed after they retired?.