**** Tiger

[Bolo Punch]

You can evaluate his wins past prime but the Bob Foster and Emile Griffith loss are irrelevant to his legacy.

I wouldn't say totally irrelevant, as if he had won it would have made his legacy a lot better, but on second thoughts I would agree that the Foster fight doesn't mean a huge deal, as Tiger was old. I'm not sure you can say the same for the Griffith fight, though.

You are quite right, but I meant that him being able to deserve a decision against Griffin and beating Torres while past prime enhances his legacy not the loss to Foster.

While this isn't really related to the point you made above, this is a gripe I have with Tiger's career. His 'prime' can be disputed. Once he managed to fight his way out of the Commonwealth he was already 32 or so, so he didn't really have a long time at the top if you believe that he declined as a regular fighter would. I personally believe that he peaked late and only started to slide after the first loss to Griffith.

Sure, he was the undisputed Middleweight champion of the world, but both of the titles he won were vacant when he won them and they were both against an aged Gene Fullmer. I will say that his win over Torres for the undisputed LHW title was a very good one but his reign over the weight is good at best, not great.

All you have to do is read reports, and that is evidence. At the same time going by your logic, surely you cannot label it a loss since you didn't see it yourself?

Not quite. I can label it a loss because that was the official decision.

You have yet to tell me your opinion on the Griffith fight...

You didn't ask for it but I'll give you that if you want it.

I haven't bent any facts, it seems you have only used boxrec to assess Tigers career.

You tried to take two losses away from him and label them wins. I have no problem with you thinking that the Griffith fight was a win by Tiger, that's fair enough, but to say that he won vs Giardello is purely based on hearsay and only said because it's suits your particular argument.

Also, I'm not going to pretend that BoxRec isn't an influence. It obviously is. I think anyone would be lying if they said it wasn't. It's not the sole factor in my opinion, though.

Still waiting for your top fighters of the 1960s, who was greater than Tiger during that time.

Do you mean Middleweights or all fighters? I don't have any lists of the top of my head but if you give me some time I guess I could compile that if you really want me to.

[KidKwik]

Tell us about the Griffith fight from your POV, and tell us who the top MWs were during the 60s. And we should just call his age when fighting top competition his prime for the sake of avoiding a trivial argument. Saying how he would have been at like 22 or another age where he wasn't facing top competition would just make this all about speculation. And I feel like mid 30s could still be a fighters prime, everyone does age differently and fighters are no exception.

[IronDanHamza]

Tell us about the Griffith fight from your POV, and tell us who the top MWs were during the 60s. And we should just call his age when fighting top competition his prime for the sake of avoiding a trivial argument. Saying how he would have been at like 22 or another age where he wasn't facing top competition would just make this all about speculation. And I feel like mid 30s could still be a fighters prime, everyone does age differently and fighters are no exception.

Tiger was the top MW of the 60's. He's quite arguably the top fighter of the 1960's in general.

Amongst Griffith, Ortiz and Ali.

As for the first Griffith fight, simply a close fight that could have gone either way. I thought Tiger won but it was a close fight.

[Bolo Punch]

Tell us about the Griffith fight from your POV, and tell us who the top MWs were during the 60s.

Apologies for the late reply. I scored the fight 133-132 for Griffith (or 7-7, plus the knockdown in favour of Griffith, if you prefer to put it that way). My copy of the fight is missing round 5 which is why my scoring isn't 100% complete. It means I could very well have scored it a draw. A very close fight indeed.

If Griffith had've beaten Tiger more comprehensively in the first fight I could see an argument for him being ranked ahead, but I think Tiger is the greatest Middleweight of the 60s.