**** Tiger

[IronDanHamza]

Not necessarily man, don't be one of those types. Just because he boxed before does not make him exponentially better than anyone out today. I feel like that only applies to heavyweights at this point. Like, say Tiger went to Super Middleweight, which was more around his weight like the mid-160s. Do you see him dominating there today?

You guys are all posing good arguments for why he should or should not. But lets come to a consensus on it he's an ATG or not

How was the mid 160's more his weight?

For a long list of his MW fights he weighed in under 160.

The highest he weighed for a non title fight was 165 and that wasn't regular. He mostly weighed between 160-163.

He never missed 160 for his title fights and like I said, a lot of them came in under the 160 lb limit.

He never weighed more than 168 for any of his fights.

He'd be a very small Super MW in today's era.

That said, the only person I see beating him from 168-175 today is Andre Ward.

Despite the size disparity, there's no way a guy like Chad Dawson is beating Tiger. He would fold like a cheap chair.

And the consensus should be that Tiger is an ATG because to me it's quite clear that's he's without question an ATG.

[RubenSonny]

How was the mid 160's more his weight?

For a long list of his MW fights he weighed in under 160.

The highest he weighed for a non title fight was 165 and that wasn't regular. He mostly weighed between 160-163.

He never missed 160 for his title fights and like I said, a lot of them came in under the 160 lb limit.

He never weighed more than 168 for any of his fights.

He'd be a very small Super MW in today's era.

That said, the only person I see beating him from 168-175 today is Andre Ward.

Despite the size disparity, there's no way a guy like Chad Dawson is beating Tiger. He would fold like a cheap chair.

And the consensus should be that Tiger is an ATG because to me it's quite clear that's he's without question an ATG.

Really? Tiger is literally better than Ward at everything.

[young_robbed]

Not necessarily man, don't be one of those types. Just because he boxed before does not make him exponentially better than anyone out today. I feel like that only applies to heavyweights at this point.

I'm not saying that because of nostalgia, I'm saying that because he genuinely is better than anybody right now. Martinez would get knocked out by him, so would Pirog, Macklin and Murray. No doubt about it.

This is a guy that actually had genuine strength, power, and craftiness. He was the full package, his main problem was that his era was just full of quality. He still racked up wins against Benvenuti, Torres, Carter, Giardello, Gonzalez, Fullmer, and Fernandez.

Like, say Tiger went to Super Middleweight, which was more around his weight like the mid-160s. Do you see him dominating there today?

Yeah.. Just for the record his peak weight was probably at 160, I'd say against Fernandez.. Even so, None of the super middleweights would have the craftiness and lateral movement needed to convincingly beat a prime Tiger. Froch would get into a war with Tiger and get chewed out. Ward would give him the best fight but wouldn't have the power to keep him away. Bute's glass jaw would get shattered. It's safe to say he would be champion of the super middleweights too.

[IronDanHamza]

Really? Tiger is literally better than Ward at everything.

Yeah I suppose you're right.

But he's the only person I see having a chance.

[IronDanHamza]

I'm not saying that because of nostalgia, I'm saying that because he genuinely is better than anybody right now. Martinez would get knocked out by him, so would Pirog, Macklin and Murray. No doubt about it.

This is a guy that actually had genuine strength, power, and craftiness. He was the full package, his main problem was that his era was just full of quality. He still racked up wins against Benvenuti, Torres, Carter, Giardello, Gonzalez, Fullmer, and Fernandez.

Yeah.. Just for the record his peak weight was probably at 160, I'd say against Fernandez.. Even so, None of the super middleweights would have the craftiness and lateral movement needed to convincingly beat a prime Tiger. Froch would get into a war with Tiger and get chewed out. Ward would give him the best fight but wouldn't have the power to keep him away. Bute's glass jaw would get shattered. It's safe to say he would be champion of the super middleweights too.

And who's going to beat him at 175? No one from what I can see despite the size difference.

[Bolo Punch]

That is the cop-out answer for people who lack knowledge.

How do I lack knowledge? I'm interested to know how this is a so-called 'cop out', too.

In other words, you're just looking at his record but not the details of it. Ridiculous.

Nope. We can take a look at the stats again, if you'd like. In fact, let's break down his record in his biggest fights...

vs. Emile Griffith - 2 losses
vs. Nino Benvenuti - 1 win
vs. Bob Foster - 1 loss
vs. Gene Fullmer - 2 wins, 1 draw
vs. Jose Torres - 2 wins
vs. Joey Giardello - 2 wins, 2 defeats

Add up his record in these fights combined and he has a very underwhelming (for a so-called ATG) 7-5-1. This kind of backs up the point I made in my earlier post (I'll quote that below), which shows that I have actually looked at the details of his career...

I'd say he lost as many big fights as he won. He may have some nice wins on his résumé but it's not just about that.

I'm not saying he isn't a great fighter. If you look at my previous posts you'll see that I give him as much credit as possible, while staying within the boundaries of my beliefs. Actually, I'll state it again... He was a great fighter, and he would be today, but he's not one of the greatest fighters in the history of the sport.

[RubenSonny]

How do I lack knowledge? I'm interested to know how this is a so-called 'cop out', too.

...........

Nope. We can take a look at the stats again, if you'd like. In fact, let's break down his record in his biggest fights...

vs. Emile Griffith - 2 losses
vs. Nino Benvenuti - 1 win
vs. Bob Foster - 1 loss
vs. Gene Fullmer - 2 wins, 1 draw
vs. Jose Torres - 2 wins
vs. Joey Giardello - 2 wins, 2 defeats

Well this is clear evidence that you don't have the ability to assess a boxers greatness. For some bizarre reason you have put fights where a Tiger is clearly washed up. Losing to a prime one of the greatest and most dangerous LHWs while being near 40 does not detract from a fighters legacy. Neither are the two losses to a prime ATG in Griffin. It wouldn't even matter if they were bums, Tiger was washed up so it doesn't degrade his standing. In fact, this period really adds to his career, the first Griffith fight should have went to Tiger and that was the general feeling at the time, what was your opinion on that fight, I wonder? He also managed to beat a very good fighter in Torres at LHW while past prime that's very impressive. As Giardello, the second fight was considered a robbery, this is why you need to actually know what you are talking about.

Add up his record in these fights combined and he has a very underwhelming (for a so-called ATG) 7-5-1. This kind of backs up the point I made in my earlier post (I'll quote that below), which shows that I have actually looked at the details of his career...

Actually given what I just writ with the relevant fights of yours listed it looks something like 9-2-1. I don't see whats the shame in having a winning record amongst great fighters by any stretch surely that indicates you are a great yourself and obviously one of the greatest to ever lace them up. Any great picks up losses when you consistently fight great opposition, how many fighters had a better run in the 1960s? In my head there is only 3 fighters you could arguably put above him - that says a lot.

[Bolo Punch]

...........
Well this is clear evidence that you don't have the ability to assess a boxers greatness. For some bizarre reason you have put fights where a Tiger is clearly washed up. Losing to a prime one of the greatest and most dangerous LHWs while being near 40 does not detract from a fighters legacy.

Okay, when would you say Tiger was in his prime to truly evaluate him, then? Up until '65? Or the first fight with Griffith? In which case, his best wins while a prime fighter would be against a washed up Gene Fullmer who actually managed a draw in between those wins, right? Or is it the win over Giardello, who had previously got a decision over Tiger? Not exactly jaw-dropping stuff for an ATG.

Neither are the two losses to a prime ATG in Griffin. It wouldn't even matter if they were bums, Tiger was washed up so it doesn't degrade his standing. In fact, this period really adds to his career

Utterly ridiculous statement. A defeat, whether it be to a bum when you're past your prime, or to a good fighter at the top of your game can in no way add to your career or enhance your legacy.

As Giardello, the second fight was considered a robbery, this is why you need to actually know what you are talking about.

Thank you for your opinion, wise one, but with no film of the fight in existence (AFAIK), you can have no say on the matter. Kind of ironic that you can criticise me for not knowing what I'm talking about when you yourself have absolutely no evidence to back up your claims of this fight being a 'robbery'.

Actually given what I just writ with the relevant fights of yours listed it looks something like 9-2-1.

Seriously, what are you actually talking about? Just because you may think that Tiger beat Griffith and have heard somewhere at sometime that he should've got the desicion vs. Giardello when he didn't doesn't mean that those things actually happened. Stop trying to bend facts to try and side with your own argument because it suits you.

Any great picks up losses when you consistently fight great opposition, how many fighters had a better run in the 1960s? In my head there is only 3 fighters you could arguably put above him - that says a lot.

Some of his losses were against people with very average records, though, not great fighters. Something you must consider.

[RubenSonny]

Okay, when would you say Tiger was in his prime to truly evaluate him, then? Up until '65? Or the first fight with Griffith? In which case, his best wins while a prime fighter would be against a washed up Gene Fullmer who actually managed a draw in between those wins, right? Or is it the win over Giardello, who had previously got a decision over Tiger? Not exactly jaw-dropping stuff for an ATG.

You can evaluate his wins past prime but the Bob Foster and Emile Griffith loss are irrelevant to his legacy.

Utterly ridiculous statement. A defeat, whether it be to a bum when you're past your prime, or to a good fighter at the top of your game can in no way add to your career or enhance your legacy.

You are quite right, but I meant that him being able to deserve a decision against Griffin and beating Torres while past prime enhances his legacy not the loss to Foster.

Thank you for your opinion, wise one, but with no film of the fight in existence (AFAIK), you can have no say on the matter. Kind of ironic that you can criticise me for not knowing what I'm talking about when you yourself have absolutely no evidence to back up your claims of this fight being a 'robbery'.

All you have to do is read reports, and that is evidence. At the same time going by your logic, surely you cannot label it a loss since you didn't see it yourself?

Seriously, what are you actually talking about? Just because you may think that Tiger beat Griffith and have heard somewhere at sometime that he should've got the desicion vs. Giardello when he didn't doesn't mean that those things actually happened. Stop trying to bend facts to try and side with your own argument because it suits you.

You have yet to tell me your opinion on the Griffith fight...

I haven't bent any facts, it seems you have only used boxrec to assess Tigers career.

Some of his losses were against people with very average records, though, not great fighters. Something you must consider.

Still waiting for your top fighters of the 1960s, who was greater than Tiger during that time.

[KidKwik]

Wow that's strange. For all these years I was under the impression that Tiger was a bigger MW. Strange. But I still feel like there are a lot of guys out there today who'd give him a hard time.