Floyd is P4P #2 ever after SRR?

[Sugar Adam Ali]

But you don't though, why does it matter if they are beltholders anyway? Why not just look at who is a top fighter or not, my example just proved your theory wrong, the fact is you are giving Joe extra props for beating a guy that beat Manny Siaca, it's literally as simple as that. They aren't real champs and the fact that they hold belts doesn't make them top fighters, if they are top fighters they are top fighters, mentioning they have belts doesn't make any difference.



No they weren't the real champions they were paper champions, they didn't beat anyone that was arguably the number 1 or number 2 so they don't have a claim to be real champions. One beat Syd Vanderpool the other beat Manny Siaca, that doesn't make you a legit champ. Floyd beat better opposition than Joe and thats all that matters thats what is important when comparing them.

I get what your saying about paper champs, and i agree with alot your saying, but kessler and lacy and calzaghe were considered the top 3 fighters at 168 at the time,,, Joe beat them both,,, then went up and beat the #1 light heavy,,,
floyd has never taken on the top guys in a division,, at 130 he did fight corrales, but at 135 he fought JLC, and thats it, at 140 he really didnt fight anyone,, corley was a nice win for debuting in the weight class, but brusceles and gatti and shambra were jokes of a fight,,,, Zab had just lost to baldomir, spinks, tzsyu, so beating him is nothing special, baldomir was basically the worst lineal welter champ ever,,, other champs at the time were margs, cotto, williams,,
Floyd has never challenged himself vs the other champs

Im not trying to say calzghe is a better fighter, but he has challenged himself and floyd has not, and calzaghe was never the face of boxing or the top draw in the entire sport,, floyd is on the top like oscar, SRL, ali,,, and all those fighters fought tough fights and challenged themselves, floyd has not lived up to the others before him,,,,

Look at how these guys fought when they reached the mountain top
SRL- benitez, duran twice, hearns, ayuble,, in about 2 years time, hagler
OScar- pernell, ike, tito, shane, vargas, hopkins, floyd, manny
floyd- oscar, hatton,jmm, ortiz, ghost, cotto, shane, canelo, and in 3 of those fights, they werent at the right weight, and oscar, cotto and shane were old and nowhere near their prime

Now you cant look at that and claim floyd deserves praise for his resume and that he has taken all the big fights, because in reality, floyd has one of the worst resumes for an ATG,, and def the worst one ever for guys that can claim to be the face of boxing and the biggest draw

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Interesting. So in skimming this thread I've learned that:

1: Whitaker was not on the downslide when he faced Oscar De La Hoya and that Oscar "win" is better than anything on Floyd's resume.

2. Calzaghe beat a prime Jeff Lacy, Mikkel Kessler and Bernard Hopkins which ****s on any and everything Floyd's accomplished.

3. Oscar has done enough to have his name mentioned with Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard and Muhammad Ali

1. pernell had never clearly lost,,, his last lost was a decade earlier, he was still a top 3 p#p guy,, people wanna compare him to mosely that floyd fought, but i dont recall pernell losing twice to the same fighter twice, like shane with winky and forrest, and losing to cotto,, and getting a gift vs oscar rematch,, Is that p4p greatness,,, top level fighters shane fought before floyd,, margs, cotto, winky twice, oscar, forrest twice,, and the dude was 2-5 and should have been 1-6, yet people claim he was the p4p #3 guy in 2010,, One big win in a decade doesnt make you a p4p #3 guy,,,

So yes pernel 97 is better than any fighter on floyd's resume,,, pernell 97 could beat anyone that floyd has fought, nobody on floyd's resume beat pernel

2. no one ever claimed that calzaghe had the better career,,, the only claim that was made was that Joe in his weight class took on all other champs when it was all said and done,, lacy had a belt, joe had a belt, kessler had 2 belts,, Joe beat them for all the belts,,
Remind me again when floyd has fought another champ,, it was over a decade ago vs corrales,, outside of that one time he never fought outher champs or the other best in the division,,,
130- casamoyer, freitas
135- spadafora, johnston, lazcano, freitas, casamoyer,, yet he fights ndou and sosa
140- tsyzu, hatton, cotto, harris, witter, maussa, and we get shambra, bruscles gatti
147- cotto, shane, margs, williams, manny, bradley,,, but we get jmm, ortiz, ghost, khan????


3. Oscar was the face of boxing and the biggest draw,, only floyd, oscar, tyson, SRL, ali can say they have been that,, not hagler, not duran, not chavez, not canelo, not shane, not tito, not roy jones,,,,

Oscar was the face of boxing and took nothing but big fights, he fought how many top p4p guys ie pernell, ike, tito, shane twice, vargas, hopkins, floyd, manny.. look at those names,, the dude has fought the last 3 p4p #1 kings in their prime in floyd, manny, hopkins...
So you are ******ed to think oscar's name doesnt get brought up,, if oscar had fought floyd's schedule of opponents oscar would be undefeated too,,,
Think about that,,
Now tell me again what top p4p guy floyd fought that was prime,,, and please dont say 2-5 vs top guys mosely, because GBP rigs the rankings to favor any future floyd opponent, hence why mosely, ghost, canelo, broner have all been ranked above better guys like rigo, ggg, garcia, etc,,,,

So im glad you found this all amusing,

[GOD-FR33]

Excellent post.

Excellent post here. On top of that, Sweet Pea is the greatest defender of all-times. He did it against the absolute best. Floyd gets hit. He is vulnerable to a jab and to the body. You could barely hit Pea with anything. In conclusion, Floyd is a great match-maker and an over-rated fighter. He refuses to challenge himself and therefore, we don't know how good he really is. He's a HOF'mer and Manny is an ATG. The risk factor says that.

[RubenSonny]

I get what your saying about paper champs, and i agree with alot your saying, but kessler and lacy and calzaghe were considered the top 3 fighters at 168 at the time,,, Joe beat them both,,, then went up and beat the #1 light heavy,,,

So what if they were Lacy was garbage and Kessler is overrated, then he fought a past it Hopkins in a fight that could've went either way.

floyd has never taken on the top guys in a division,, at 130 he did fight corrales, but at 135 he fought JLC, and thats it, at 140 he really didnt fight anyone,, corley was a nice win for debuting in the weight class, but brusceles and gatti and shambra were jokes of a fight,,,, Zab had just lost to baldomir, spinks, tzsyu, so beating him is nothing special, baldomir was basically the worst lineal welter champ ever,,, other champs at the time were margs, cotto, williams,,
Floyd has never challenged himself vs the other champs

Rankings aren't always equal but I will play your game, Floyd fought the Champ at 130, fought Corrales who was number 1, Manfredy was number 4 or 3, Chavez was number 3, the last too being far more challenging fighters than Jeff Lacy. He moved up and fought the champ at lightweight twice. He moved up again and fought a top 3 ranked 140lber in Gatti. I don't even want to bother with the rest but Floyd has taken on far more challenging oppositin than Joe ever did, it's laughable to suggest otherwise.

Im not trying to say calzghe is a better fighter, but he has challenged himself and floyd has not, and calzaghe was never the face of boxing or the top draw in the entire sport,, floyd is on the top like oscar, SRL, ali,,, and all those fighters fought tough fights and challenged themselves, floyd has not lived up to the others before him,,,,

Floyd has challenged himself a lot more than Joe.

Look at how these guys fought when they reached the mountain top
SRL- benitez, duran twice, hearns, ayuble,, in about 2 years time, hagler
OScar- pernell, ike, tito, shane, vargas, hopkins, floyd, manny
floyd- oscar, hatton,jmm, ortiz, ghost, cotto, shane, canelo, and in 3 of those fights, they werent at the right weight, and oscar, cotto and shane were old and nowhere near their prime

Yeah there were much more quality fighters during Leonards time, he is a greater fighter than Floyd no doubt.

Oscar fought an past it Whitaker, a past it and inactive Ike - in fact it's rather bizarre that you give Oscar credit for this but criticise the Shane win who Floyd actually managed to convincingly beat. Just so you know it was considered a cherry pick when Oscar picked the unproven lightweight in Shane Mosley. Are you really going to credit Oscar for cherrypicking Pac?

Now you cant look at that and claim floyd deserves praise for his resume and that he has taken all the big fights, because in reality, floyd has one of the worst resumes for an ATG,, and def the worst one ever for guys that can claim to be the face of boxing and the biggest draw

Oscar isn't an ATG and his resume isn't as good as Floyds either.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

So what if they were Lacy was garbage and Kessler is overrated, then he fought a past it Hopkins in a fight that could've went either way.



Rankings aren't always equal but I will play your game, Floyd fought the Champ at 130, fought Corrales who was number 1, Manfredy was number 4 or 3, Chavez was number 3, the last too being far more challenging fighters than Jeff Lacy. He moved up and fought the champ at lightweight twice. He moved up again and fought a top 3 ranked 140lber in Gatti. I don't even want to bother with the rest but Floyd has taken on far more challenging oppositin than Joe ever did, it's laughable to suggest otherwise.



Floyd has challenged himself a lot more than Joe.



Yeah there were much more quality fighters during Leonards time, he is a greater fighter than Floyd no doubt.

Oscar fought an past it Whitaker, a past it and inactive Ike - in fact it's rather bizarre that you give Oscar credit for this but criticise the Shane win who Floyd actually managed to convincingly beat. Just so you know it was considered a cherry pick when Oscar picked the unproven lightweight in Shane Mosley. Are you really going to credit Oscar for cherrypicking Pac?



Oscar isn't an ATG and his resume isn't as good as Floyds either.

We can go round and round,, you make some valid points,, you can nitpick anyone's resume,,,
but floyd just isnt some fighter,, he is the face of boxing and the top money man, that is a rare spot and only oscar, tyson, SRL and Ali can say that over the past 50 years
So floyd is held to a much higher standard than say a tim bradley or jmm or tito trinidad, or cotto, etc.....

The one thing i will totally debate forever is how much better oscars resume and list of challenges he has taken,,,
Is oscar an ATG,, probably not but i think he gives anyone in history a tough fight, he is def HOFer

But his list of opponents trumps floyd's and its not even close,,,,
faded chavez - faded shane and cotto
champion ike- yes he was inactive but so has ward,, to you think ward is not good anymore
pernell
prime shane twice
prime tito
prime-ish hopkins
prime vargas
prime floyd
prime manny

who on floyd's resume compare to prime tito, floyd, manny, hopkins, shane

is it corrales, hatton, JLC, canelo

LMAO

[billeau2]

Come on, you can't honestly list Bonecrusher Smith as a higher calibre opponent than what Mayweather has been fighting. Bonecrusher wasnt exactly young either.

Shavers ? It's hypocritical to criticize Mosley as one dimensional when Shavers was far more one dimensional with a questionable chin. I'm not hyping Mosley but there is no way you can claim fighters like Berbick, Scott Frank, Ossie Ocasio, Leroy Jones, eclipse Mayweather's opposition.

I don't mind criticism but I'm pretty certain what I am saying is true. You can criticize Mosley's skill but he was far better than a lot of Holmes opponents.

Oh definitely! Shane is very good, heck imo he is one notch below elite whatever one wants to refer to that category of fighter as....And yeah he was probably stronger than Shavers when considered in any meaningful way. But my point relates to the Easton Assasin, the pinhead, the crazy guy that jumped berbick....Larry Holmes.

Holmes during his heyday was characterized mercilessly! He was told he was a bad carbon copy (Some may rememember carbon blue copies haha) of Ali. He was always being compared to Ali. And he was thought to be easily dismissed, a pretender, a glorified sparring partner who had the pathetic circumstances to beat up the aging "champ."

Holmes had to be fanastic to establish himself. During that time I dare say Holmes was never thought of as a "ducker,"....And indeed he fought tough comp throughout. Thats my point, you can't look at the level of comp for Mayweather and Holmes the same way. Holmes would have fought Attila the Hun with stallion if he thought it would have brought him outside Ali's shadow... Mayweather for most of his career had to figure out how to draw the numbers and when he did he became very safety oriented. Guys like Mayweather and Jones fought comp when their back was against the wall....Larry was fighting Tyson after being in decline because people were still comparing him to Ali!

[billeau2]

So you're saying the Klits ducked some opponents? Who? Or are you saying it's just a weak division they fight in?

Both. Actually truth be told the Klits don't have to duck anybody do they? being the state of the division and all I think their image is handled and media induced through their management. I also do not think that either guy looks around and takes a challenge from a hot prospect the fans might want to see. Lewis got a lot of flack for safety first, but Lewis often went out of his way to fight the guys the public demanded....Briggs, Golata, to name a few...Lets also remember that Lewis took the Vitali fight on a lark, he was supposed to fight a nobody (Kirk Douglas). The Klits are not exactly looking to do the same are they? why not fight Dontey Wilder of Furey? Because people want to see it. Bronte would rather sell us some pathetic safe win like Povatkin....sure right, he is the mandatory after all.....Seriously though, guys like Evander would laugh give the belt to Povatkin and fight throughthe real challenges. See the difference?

Thats my take on the situation

[billeau2]

Excellent post here. On top of that, Sweet Pea is the greatest defender of all-times. He did it against the absolute best. Floyd gets hit. He is vulnerable to a jab and to the body. You could barely hit Pea with anything. In conclusion, Floyd is a great match-maker and an over-rated fighter. He refuses to challenge himself and therefore, we don't know how good he really is. He's a HOF'mer and Manny is an ATG. The risk factor says that.

Your basing your analysis primarily on the Cotto fight regarding Mayweather? Generally speaking Floyd does not get hit a lot, BUT he sacrifices his attack, leaving it to one accurate shot then moving....in order not to get hit. Like so many things with it is not a natural ability, it is a learned response imo.

Sweet Pea by comparison may have been the greatest defensive fighter.....ever. And indeed in this respect you cannot even really compare Floyd's calculated defensive strategy which involves the occasional clinch, repositioning oneself immediately after a counter punch, etc with the natural effortless defensive effort of the best defensive wizard that graced the square circle...

PS Floyd's michigan shoulder roll is inclined such that there is a natural weakness against a good jab, or occasionally with speed. The style obviously can overcome this with fine adjustments but as you say Floyd, using this style, has been vulnerable to a jab (Oscar per example) and speed (Judah). A good example also would be Toney. The speed of Jones really put this style which Toney also uses (like Floyd) in a bad way. Great as Lights out is he could not shoulder roll a counter against then pure speed of Jones.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Your basing your analysis primarily on the Cotto fight regarding Mayweather? Generally speaking Floyd does not get hit a lot, BUT he sacrifices his attack, leaving it to one accurate shot then moving....in order not to get hit. Like so many things with it is not a natural ability, it is a learned response imo.

Sweet Pea by comparison may have been the greatest defensive fighter.....ever. And indeed in this respect you cannot even really compare Floyd's calculated defensive strategy which involves the occasional clinch, repositioning oneself immediately after a counter punch, etc with the natural effortless defensive effort of the best defensive wizard that graced the square circle...

PS Floyd's michigan shoulder roll is inclined such that there is a natural weakness against a good jab, or occasionally with speed. The style obviously can overcome this with fine adjustments but as you say Floyd, using this style, has been vulnerable to a jab (Oscar per example) and speed (Judah). A good example also would be Toney. The speed of Jones really put this style which Toney also uses (like Floyd) in a bad way. Great as Lights out is he could not shoulder roll a counter against then pure speed of Jones.

very astute breakdown of the vulnerablities of the shoulder roll

[joseph5620]

1. pernell had never clearly lost,,, his last lost was a decade earlier, he was still a top 3 p#p guy,, people wanna compare him to mosely that floyd fought, but i dont recall pernell losing twice to the same fighter twice, like shane with winky and forrest, and losing to cotto,, and getting a gift vs oscar rematch,, Is that p4p greatness,,, top level fighters shane fought before floyd,, margs, cotto, winky twice, oscar, forrest twice,, and the dude was 2-5 and should have been 1-6, yet people claim he was the p4p #3 guy in 2010,, One big win in a decade doesnt make you a p4p #3 guy,,,

So yes pernel 97 is better than any fighter on floyd's resume,,, pernell 97 could beat anyone that floyd has fought, nobody on floyd's resume beat pernel

2. no one ever claimed that calzaghe had the better career,,, the only claim that was made was that Joe in his weight class took on all other champs when it was all said and done,, lacy had a belt, joe had a belt, kessler had 2 belts,, Joe beat them for all the belts,,
Remind me again when floyd has fought another champ,, it was over a decade ago vs corrales,, outside of that one time he never fought outher champs or the other best in the division,,,
130- casamoyer, freitas
135- spadafora, johnston, lazcano, freitas, casamoyer,, yet he fights ndou and sosa
140- tsyzu, hatton, cotto, harris, witter, maussa, and we get shambra, bruscles gatti
147- cotto, shane, margs, williams, manny, bradley,,, but we get jmm, ortiz, ghost, khan????


3. Oscar was the face of boxing and the biggest draw,, only floyd, oscar, tyson, SRL, ali can say they have been that,, not hagler, not duran, not chavez, not canelo, not shane, not tito, not roy jones,,,,

Oscar was the face of boxing and took nothing but big fights, he fought how many top p4p guys ie pernell, ike, tito, shane twice, vargas, hopkins, floyd, manny.. look at those names,, the dude has fought the last 3 p4p #1 kings in their prime in floyd, manny, hopkins...
So you are ******ed to think oscar's name doesnt get brought up,, if oscar had fought floyd's schedule of opponents oscar would be undefeated too,,,
Think about that,,
Now tell me again what top p4p guy floyd fought that was prime,,, and please dont say 2-5 vs top guys mosely, because GBP rigs the rankings to favor any future floyd opponent, hence why mosely, ghost, canelo, broner have all been ranked above better guys like rigo, ggg, garcia, etc,,,,

So im glad you found this all amusing,

97 pernell would not have beaten Canelo.I say that with confidence. That version might not have beaten a lot of Mayweather's opponents.

You're just rewriting history and making things up. If Whitaker of that time was struggling with Hurtado and Riviera, it ridiculous for you to say he would have beaten anybody Mayweather fought.

That's all that needs to be said.

The fact that you claimed Calzaghe beat a "prime" Hopkins and threw Lacy(who sucked) in there too kills your credibility on this topic.