How would dempsey do against todays Heavyweights?

[travestyny]

Paragraph by paragraph:

I don't mind attacking Dempsey Or anyone else, my concern was the context of the incident and I was under the impression that it was more than simply a substance that was being talked about.

We don't know what any wraps produced...thats simply a fact. You asked if it is reasonable to assume some cutting, etc took place because of any agency, I said depending on what it was. You said it yourself, we don't have a control, another Willard unfettered, so we have to be precise here. I guess that why I am su****ious of your angle T: I may have misunderstood that you were talking about substances, and not hard objects, but i can't help feeling like you are pushing for some definite major object(s) in those gloves that determined Willard's fate. I dont think we can determine that and I explained among other things, why dealing with wraps, versus hands, versus other ways of treating the hands is not a definite.

Try to understand why it is relevent when I ask: Would it make a difference if a hardening agent was put in the hands, or the wraps? It means that treating the hands with linseed oil, oil cloth is very similar to putting chemical agents on the wraps, including up to a point, rubber adhesives, etc.

When you say "hardened wraps" again, if we are really precise we don't know if these wraps were intended to help make the hands hard to not break, or hard to make the punches harder. We have to know exactly what was put to make that conclusion. Rubber like a bicycle tire does not tell us a whole lot. Rubber is not generally used to make a punch harder.

My comment about "years after the fight" is in reference to a hard object in the gloves, not a substance that was used on the wraps. That is what was shot down, you said it yourself.

I don't know how the notion that the tape was taken off makes one predisposed to assuming it was used to inflict damage. Keep in mind that treatment of hands was not a science and what people thought was going on and what was really happening could be two different things. The proof of this is that all those magical treatments did not seem to prevent the problems. Thats why wraps changed over the ages, but thats another discussion.

I think there is some confusion. I'm not talking about a substance added to the wraps in the sense of a chemical or something like that. I'm also not talking about a piece of a lead pipe or whatever other bs that was debunked.


I'm talking about exactly what the trainer said. A tape...that you wrap the hands with....the becomes hard after some time. The tape becomes hard.

The reason I pointed to McCoy's tale is because you were saying maybe it was simply used to protect the hands. If that were true, he wouldn't have voluntarily taken all of it off except the few strips that he allowed to harden at his knuckles. Again, this is the pertinent part:

...would argue till the tape had become hardened like iron. He would then smilingly take off as much of the tape as was possible. But bicycle tape has the unfortunate, qualification of adhering, when heated, and the final strand would still stay on.

McCoy would grirmace helplessly and his opponent would usually overlook the last and most dangerous strand of all. McCoy's knuckles would, however, be protected with bands like iron, which a trick of the trade had made possible. This ingenious little device has been the occasion of making the pugilist of the present time doubly careful as to the hand bandages of an opponent. It is the legacy of McCoy to his profession."

If the tape was removed from around the hand, it's clear that McCoy wasn't using it to protect his hands. That he stalled long enough for it to harden around his knuckles purposely tells what this was about.

This is what DeForest stated Dempsey used.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Not difficult to pull off at all. I posted another source already that said Willard didn't object to the tape being used.

And as was stated before, Kid McCoy used a similar tape that he wanted to remove himself to make it seem like he didn't want his hands taped with it. He would stall with his hands in full view until the tape hardened, the quotation said. It's completely possible that they were unaware of what this tape would do.

So whether someone watched and didn't know the nature of the tape, or watched and did know the nature of the tape, it still adds up to the same thing. Hardened wraps that caused unusual damage.



What's important to remember is that DeForest said the tape hardened when you drew on the gloves.



As per McCoy's quotation about taking off the tape but leaving strips over his knuckles, doesn't seem that you even needed to draw on the gloves for this process to take place. Just takes time and naturally because of heat, it will harden.

OK so what makes the tape harden? - You told me it has nothing to do with getting wet, (sweat) I said fine. But now you tell me if you just wait it will harden right before your eyes and no one will be the wiser. Why doesn't it just harden on the role? If it is not about getting wet then what changes when you put it on your hands that makes it harden? -- Me thinks we have circled back to magic tape that doesn't exist.

[billeau2]

I think there is some confusion. I'm not talking about a substance added to the wraps in the sense of a chemical or something like that. I'm also not talking about a piece of a lead pipe or whatever other bs that was debunked.


I'm talking about exactly what the trainer said. A tape...that you wrap the hands with....the becomes hard after some time. The tape becomes hard.

The reason I pointed to McCoy's tale is because you were saying maybe it was simply used to protect the hands. If that were true, he wouldn't have voluntarily taken all of it off except the few strips that he allowed to harden at his knuckles. Again, this is the pertinent part:




If the tape was removed from around the hand, it's clear that McCoy wasn't using it to protect his hands. That he stalled long enough for it to harden around his knuckles purposely tells what this was about.

This is what DeForest stated Dempsey used.

I wish the quote system would let the quotes stand when replying I have to go back and fourth lol and I may have missed the description of MCcoy.

Travesty what you cited in this post is not in conflict. You may have used this quote last time and I inadvertently missed it when responding. If you did I apologize. Adhesives that remain on the hands were used *******ly at that time, thats not a problem for me.

I would only add one caveat here: Any idea that any of these materials create some superhuman hardness, or strength should be taken with some skeptascism. If you ask a lot of trainers back then how to give a fighter something that would give them courage, fortitude and wind to keep going they would tell you they use Celtic "fire water," another name for whiskey!

[billeau2]

OK so what makes the tape harden? - You told me it has nothing to do with getting wet, (sweat) I said fine. But now you tell me if you just wait it will harden right before your eyes and no one will be the wiser. Why doesn't it just harden on the role? If it is not about getting wet then what changes when you put it on your hands that makes it harden? -- Me thinks we have circled back to magic tape that doesn't exist.

In those days there were all kinds of miracle potations, that had ******* amounts of alcohol and even tinctures of Opium (Ladeume)...Coca Cola had ******* in it, a miracle drug being pushed by Dr Sigmund Freud, later to renounce and apologize...

Certainly some things can harden on the body with salt and moisture when exposed...But to say this would produce the same effect as a band of Iron is something that would defy common understanding. As a matter of fact the more I think about it, the reason I thought Travesty was talking about hard solids in the gloves was because I misunderstood how this metamorphisis was to take place on the hands.

I do think fighters were given plenty of leeway to fix their hands and their seconds all had different ideas that were thought "a special recipe..." I think that one motivation for the trainer here was sharing his own special way of preparing the fighter, if, as Travesty said the trainer while working for Dempsey was free in discussing his methods.

But the actual material affect of punches due to any of the material used on the hands is something that is hard to guage. I don't think we can look at Willard after that fight and determine that something was definitely responsible for his beating above and beyond Dempsey. At the same time? It would not suprise me if some of the cutting was accomplished due to abrasion in the wrapping material, but it would have to come through the glove... I don't see how that type of abrasion could be sustained through the glove.

[GhostofDempsey]

OK so what makes the tape harden? - You told me it has nothing to do with getting wet, (sweat) I said fine. But now you tell me if you just wait it will harden right before your eyes and no one will be the wiser. Why doesn't it just harden on the role? If it is not about getting wet then what changes when you put it on your hands that makes it harden? -- Me thinks we have circled back to magic tape that doesn't exist.

There was no tape or plaster. That myth was debunked long ago.

The damage to Willard was not nearly the smoking gun to suggest cheating as an illegal IV, or special water bottle, but I suppose that is the reason why he is vehemently looking for angles to discredit Dempsey or make him out to be a cheater, pimp, abuser etc. Kind of odd that someone has this hard on for a guy who died nearly four decades ago and a fight that took place almost a 100 years ago. Motives are suspect to say the least.

[travestyny]

OK so what makes the tape harden? - You told me it has nothing to do with getting wet, (sweat) I said fine. But now you tell me if you just wait it will harden right before your eyes and no one will be the wiser. Why doesn't it just harden on the role? If it is not about getting wet then what changes when you put it on your hands that makes it harden? -- Me thinks we have circled back to magic tape that doesn't exist.

There is a lot of evidence that this tape does exist. Who knows what it's carried in or whether it hardens based upon the temperature of your hands? It's clear that wrapped hands would be a different temperature than just the tape being wound around itself. What about the temperature in the ring? Did McCoy have on the gloves first and then take them off to remove some of the tape?

I don't think that anyone has doubted that the tape exists. The key to it hardening seems to be heat, which makes it clear that it would harden when gloves are placed over it.

Why would Kid McCoy lie about it and why has similar tape like bicycle tape have been discussed so much? Why would DeForest make up a certain kind of tape out of the blue that doesn't exist?


Read the article about it here, which is from 1910. I don't think anyone was making up this tape out of the blue.

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=...100327.2.265.7

[travestyny]

There was no tape or plaster. That myth was debunked long ago.

The damage to Willard was not nearly the smoking gun to suggest cheating as an illegal IV, or special water bottle, but I suppose that is the reason why he is vehemently looking for angles to discredit Dempsey or make him out to be a cheater, pimp, abuser etc. Kind of odd that someone has this hard on for a guy who died nearly four decades ago and a fight that took place almost a 100 years ago. Motives are suspect to say the least.

You're a flat out liar. What proof do you have that there was no tape. Stop pulling shlt out of your ass.

[travestyny]

In those days there were all kinds of miracle potations, that had ******* amounts of alcohol and even tinctures of Opium (Ladeume)...Coca Cola had ******* in it, a miracle drug being pushed by Dr Sigmund Freud, later to renounce and apologize...

Certainly some things can harden on the body with salt and moisture when exposed...But to say this would produce the same effect as a band of Iron is something that would defy common understanding. As a matter of fact the more I think about it, the reason I thought Travesty was talking about hard solids in the gloves was because I misunderstood how this metamorphisis was to take place on the hands.

I do think fighters were given plenty of leeway to fix their hands and their seconds all had different ideas that were thought "a special recipe..." I think that one motivation for the trainer here was sharing his own special way of preparing the fighter, if, as Travesty said the trainer while working for Dempsey was free in discussing his methods.

But the actual material affect of punches due to any of the material used on the hands is something that is hard to guage. I don't think we can look at Willard after that fight and determine that something was definitely responsible for his beating above and beyond Dempsey. At the same time? It would not suprise me if some of the cutting was accomplished due to abrasion in the wrapping material, but it would have to come through the glove... I don't see how that type of abrasion could be sustained through the glove.

I don't understand how it is that someone describes this tape as making your hands hard as rocks, another person says it's like having iron on your knuckles, another says the tape would cause "unusual damage," and you're saying that even if this were true, it wouldn't be the cause of excessive damage than if it weren't there.

That simply makes no sense.

What did Billy collins say to his father in between rounds?

He took the beating of a lifetime. Midway through the fight hetold his father, "It feels like he's got rocks in his gloves."

GhostofDempsey claims it was no worse than how Berto looked and a few other boxers.

Collins suffered a torn iris and permanently blurred vision, ending his boxing career.

The lengths that GhostofDempsey will go to for this to go away is laughable.

[travestyny]

I wish the quote system would let the quotes stand when replying I have to go back and fourth lol and I may have missed the description of MCcoy.

Travesty what you cited in this post is not in conflict. You may have used this quote last time and I inadvertently missed it when responding. If you did I apologize. Adhesives that remain on the hands were used *******ly at that time, thats not a problem for me.

I would only add one caveat here: Any idea that any of these materials create some superhuman hardness, or strength should be taken with some skeptascism. If you ask a lot of trainers back then how to give a fighter something that would give them courage, fortitude and wind to keep going they would tell you they use Celtic "fire water," another name for whiskey!

Sorry, I missed this. I didn't notice the multiple responses.

What you are still ignoring is that Kid McCoy clearly left the strip across his knuckles for an advantage.

This is Kid McCoy we are talking about. One of the biggest "cheaters" in the history of the sport, from what I can tell. I'm putting cheaters in quotations because I would imagine that some of the things he did wasn't considered strictly speaking illegal because of the lax regulations.

I don't know how much evidence can make this any more clearer for you guys. What do you think Kid McCoy was up to with that tape...the same tape that Dempsey used. Here's a bit about Kid McCoy.

His outrageous cheating in the boxing ring--like spraying ammonia in one opponent's eyes and strewing thumbtacks under the bare feet of another--ironically made him a glamorous sports figure. But in the world outside the ring, his temper was notorious, and between his eighth and ninth wives, he killed his girlfriend.

Famed for his "corkscrew punch," it was his underhanded tactics that made him popular. Against a deaf boxer, he pointed to the man's corner, indicating that the bell had ended the round. It hadn't. When the man turned away, McCoy knocked him cold.

So this guy, Kid McCoy, used the same exact tape as Dempsey. This tape that apparently was similar to bicycle tape. This tape that was said to harden when heated and would cause "unusual damage."

So you think this tape didn't give any advantage though the people involved said it did, and one of the biggest cheaters in the history of the sport used it.

Highly unlikely that you are right about this!

[travestyny]

There was no tape or plaster. That myth was debunked long ago.

Not according to your boy. He proves you wrong about that, or will you make an excuse about it?

Then his eyes hardened and he said; "I put gauze on my hands, then put black tape over the gauze...at no time were my | hands soaked with water...it doesn’t make sense...the gloves would never go on.”

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=...19640128.2.101

Furthermore, why is Dempsey lying about who wrapped his hands. He claimed that he did it himself.

“Ridiculous;” answered the Manassa Mauler. “I taped my own hands and cut the tape off after the fight in the ring.” said Dempsey.

Not according to this eye witness:

There were plenty of other refutations of the Kearns tall-tale. Nat Fleischer, in his autobiography 50 Years at Ringside, effectively dispels the Plaster of Paris myth. “I was at the fight,” wrote Fleischer. “I saw Jimmy Deforest, Dempsey’s trainer tape Jack’s hands. I watched every move of the men in Jack’s quarters. I think I can clear the atmosphere once and for all with an accurate version of what happened. Jack Dempsey had no loaded gloves, and no plaster of Paris over his bandages. I watched the proceedings and the only person who had anything to do with the taping of Jacks’ hands was Deforest.

https://thecruelestsport.com/2015/06...willard-fight/

So the only man who had anything to do with the wraps was Deforest.......WHO SAID:

“As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment. I wound Dempsey’s hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected. The story that Dempsey wore aluminum pads over his knuckles is a lie. His bandages became hardened, no doubt, and that was why he cut Willard’s face to ribbons.”

Seems you're wrong.