How would dempsey do against todays Heavyweights?

[GhostofDempsey]

This obsession to bash the man is really a form of mental illness. OCD level thesis regarding articles, journalists, testimonies and the man himself from a century ago. Redundant, and bordering on conspiracy theory level madness. All because someone got their feelings hurt, Lol.

[travestyny]

This obsession to bash the man is really a form of mental illness. OCD level thesis regarding articles, journalists, testimonies and the man himself from a century ago. Redundant, and bordering on conspiracy theory level madness. All because someone got their feelings hurt, Lol.

We actually had a very nice discussion that was not about bashing anyone. The loaded gloves theory with regards to Dempsey has been something talked about for years, and this is the history section. If it's too much for you to handle, you should stay away.

It's too bad you chose to be butthurt about it instead of joining in like the other members here. I enjoyed it, and no one was insulting anyone. Maybe you should grow up.

[travestyny]

It would depend on what part of the story. Some type of hard tapelike, rubber like material is believable, it was a common occurence. But past that it gets sketchy... Then we get difference accounts.

Well if it's believable, that's really all there is to it. I wasn't concerned with different accounts. The different accounts were all looked into, and they were found to be undeniably false! This current theory was looked into and found to be believable, and from my and others standpoint, likely. That's all I'm saying, bro. I think in the beginning of our discussion you were of the opinion that I was attacking Dempsey, probably because of my ongoing feud with GhostofDempsey, and that was not my intention. I think finally we moved past that and we've met eye to eye.

But when asking me to consent to a credability check...Be careful! To say "Willard had never been knocked down before" implies lots of things Travesty. Dempsey was an incredible puncher and Willard being knocked around because of wrappings is not a credible conclusion. Its possible that a type of cut would be produced, even that is "iffy" to me.

Not sure why having hardened hand wraps producing even cuts seems iffy. The trainer said "unusual damage," the boxing writer that I shared with you said his hands would be as hard as "rocks." Of course using hardened wraps would do more damage than the wraps of today. It's the whole reason Kid McCoy, when removing the tape from his hands, left strips of it across his knuckles. Why else would he do that?

Incidently I never denied the substance theory, I denied where it evolved, at that time no less! People were ready to say Dempsey had a horseshoe in his glove lol.

But part of your denial was saying it came "years after the fight." That was inaccurate. It came less than a year after the fight. And again, the Kearns story was looked into and absolutely destroyed. This one, as far as I can find from any boxing writer, journalist, or historian, has been accepted. I've never seen any historian, journalist, or writer shoot it down. Again, the story originated from less than a year from the fight and yet it still stands up. The horseshoe theory was debunked as well.

I think the misunderstanding about the substance aspect is something I asked you a while back: Does it make a difference if a fighter puts something on his hands directly to harden them? as compared to putting something in the wraps? So yes, fighters did these things, and none of them would knock a man senseless so much as guarantee that in knocking man, the hands would not break. Now do you get that digression?

Ill write later , family in lol

No, I don't. Again, McCoy left strips of this tape over his knuckles for a reason. That he took it off of his hands otherwise shows that this tape's purpose was not to guarantee that his hands wouldn't break. lol. It was clearly left there to increase the damage that was done.


Here again, courtesy of Battling Nelson:

Bicycle tape.
It was McCoy too, who introduced the ingenious practice of putting a heavy layer of bicycle tape upon his hands. Then the "Kid," in dressinggown, would pleasantly argue in the center of the ring as to the desirability of that tape's removal— would argue till the tape had become hardened like iron. He would then smilingly take off as much of the tape as was possible. But bicycle tape has the unfortunate, qualification of adhering, when heated, and the final strand would still stay on.

McCoy would grirmace helplessly and his opponent would usually overlook the last and most dangerous strand of all. McCoy's knuckles would, however, be protected with bands like iron, which a trick of the trade had made possible. This ingenious little device has been the occasion of making the pugilist of the present time doubly careful as to the hand bandages of an opponent. It is the legacy of McCoy to his profession."

It is, however, sufficient to indicate the tricks of a trade which is apparently severe in more ways than one. Most of these tricks are unfair, yes; but what tricks are not? Many gentlemen of many desirable professions live in glass houses, it seems. Can they afford to throw stones at gentlemanly pugilists?"

It pretty much says it all right there. It is made very clear that the tape was used not for protection of the hands, but rather for the damage that was caused. Remember, the trainer who wrapped Dempsey for Willard had stated that he used the same tape for Kid McCoy.

[Anthony342]

Resto admit the wraps were loaded in plaster later.





As for Dempsey vs. Tunney, who knows if he used them? When he fought Carpentier, Carpentier's manager asked him to remove the tape, which he did. We don't need to speculate about the Tunney fight when we have the word of his trainer saying specifically that he wore the tape in the Willard fight. I'm not accusing him of using them for every fight, but he apparently used it against Willard and tried to use it against Carpentier because they asked for only gauze in accordance with the NJ rules.


I wonder if Margarito used his plaster slabs against P. Williams, and Williams won that fight!

Oh yeah, I remember that now. And before I check that link, there's some extra interview footage on the DVD release where he meets with another boxer outdoors and admits to using plaster wraps against him. Also interesting to find out what Lewis used in his infamous bottle he called "the one I mix" in Aaron Pryor's corner in the first fight with Arguello. Resto said it was a dissolved asthma tablet which opened up the airways and increased lung capacity, giving his fighter a temporary energy boost. I think Resto should be allowed to work the corner these days. Glad he was able to reconcile with his family, at least. Lewis should stay banned though and die a horrible, suffering death.

[travestyny]

Oh yeah, I remember that now. And before I check that link, there's some extra interview footage on the DVD release where he meets with another boxer outdoors and admits to using plaster wraps against him. Also interesting to find out what Lewis used in his infamous bottle he called "the one I mix" in Aaron Pryor's corner in the first fight with Arguello. Resto said it was a dissolved asthma tablet which opened up the airways and increased lung capacity, giving his fighter a temporary energy boost. I think Resto should be allowed to work the corner these days. Glad he was able to reconcile with his family, at least. Lewis should stay banned though and die a horrible, suffering death.

Man, I agree with you 100%. I do believe Resto that he was just a young kid that was going along with it. He shouldn't be completely absolved from what he did or his choice to go along with it, but I have at least a tad bit of sympathy for him.

As for Lewis, that piece of shlt should be banished from boxing and rotting in a jail cell somewhere.

[Anthony342]

Man, I agree with you 100%. I do believe Resto that he was just a young kid that was going along with it. He shouldn't be completely absolved from what he did or his choice to go along with it, but I have at least a tad bit of sympathy for him.

As for Lewis, that piece of shlt should be banished from boxing and rotting in a jail cell somewhere.

You ever see the DVD? The extended interviews are pretty good too. They talk to a couple of other trainers, including Freddie Roach.

[travestyny]

You ever see the DVD? The extended interviews are pretty good too. They talk to a couple of other trainers, including Freddie Roach.

I've only seen a small part of the DVD (I think).

Actually going back to the things I've seen, I'm not sure they were from any DVD. I saw a string of interviews with him. This was one that I saw about the special mix that Lewis gave his fighters.




I'd be very interested in the DVD. Would be cool to hear from guys like Freddie Roach.

[Dempsey-Louis]

If Dempsey said this, does this mean he is the liar? (article below)

Because De Forrest's story doesn't work unless Dempsey is lying here.

Most of the McCoy and Dempsey stories, by De Forrest, involve 'already tapped' hands being inspected.

Dempsey's quote here suggests that a Willard second watched his hands being taped. That makes De Forest's 'McCoy gimmick' a touch more difficult to pull off. (Today local commissions fill that role.)

It would be interesting to find a report/article (not about loaded gloves) that talks about the pre-fight procedure. Wonder if such an article exists.



I think it has been a good discussion. Heated but not rude, enjoyable. If we are guilty of anything it's redundancy.

[travestyny]

If Dempsey said this, does this mean he is the liar? (article below)

Because De Forrest's story doesn't work unless Dempsey is lying here.

Most of the McCoy and Dempsey stories, by De Forrest, involve 'already tapped' hands being inspected.

Dempsey's quote here suggests that a Willard second watched his hands being taped. That makes De Forest's 'McCoy gimmick' a touch more difficult to pull off. (Today local commissions fill that role.)

It would be interesting to find a report/article (not about loaded gloves) that talks about the pre-fight procedure. Wonder if such an article exists.



I think it has been a good discussion. Heated but not rude, enjoyable. If we are guilty of anything it's redundancy.

Not difficult to pull off at all. I posted another source already that said Willard didn't object to the tape being used.

And as was stated before, Kid McCoy used a similar tape that he wanted to remove himself to make it seem like he didn't want his hands taped with it. He would stall with his hands in full view until the tape hardened, the quotation said. It's completely possible that they were unaware of what this tape would do.

So whether someone watched and didn't know the nature of the tape, or watched and did know the nature of the tape, it still adds up to the same thing. Hardened wraps that caused unusual damage.


What's important to remember is that DeForest said the tape hardened when you drew on the gloves.

As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment.

As per McCoy's quotation about taking off the tape but leaving strips over his knuckles, doesn't seem that you even needed to draw on the gloves for this process to take place. Just takes time and naturally because of heat, it will harden.

[billeau2]

Well if it's believable, that's really all there is to it. I wasn't concerned with different accounts. The different accounts were all looked into, and they were found to be undeniably false! This current theory was looked into and found to be believable, and from my and others standpoint, likely. That's all I'm saying, bro. I think in the beginning of our discussion you were of the opinion that I was attacking Dempsey, probably because of my ongoing feud with GhostofDempsey, and that was not my intention. I think finally we moved past that and we've met eye to eye.



Not sure why having hardened hand wraps producing even cuts seems iffy. The trainer said "unusual damage," the boxing writer that I shared with you said his hands would be as hard as "rocks." Of course using hardened wraps would do more damage than the wraps of today. It's the whole reason Kid McCoy, when removing the tape from his hands, left strips of it across his knuckles. Why else would he do that?



But part of your denial was saying it came "years after the fight." That was inaccurate. It came less than a year after the fight. And again, the Kearns story was looked into and absolutely destroyed. This one, as far as I can find from any boxing writer, journalist, or historian, has been accepted. I've never seen any historian, journalist, or writer shoot it down. Again, the story originated from less than a year from the fight and yet it still stands up. The horseshoe theory was debunked as well.



No, I don't. Again, McCoy left strips of this tape over his knuckles for a reason. That he took it off of his hands otherwise shows that this tape's purpose was not to guarantee that his hands wouldn't break. lol. It was clearly left there to increase the damage that was done.


Here again, courtesy of Battling Nelson:



It pretty much says it all right there. It is made very clear that the tape was used not for protection of the hands, but rather for the damage that was caused. Remember, the trainer who wrapped Dempsey for Willard had stated that he used the same tape for Kid McCoy.

Paragraph by paragraph:

I don't mind attacking Dempsey Or anyone else, my concern was the context of the incident and I was under the impression that it was more than simply a substance that was being talked about.

We don't know what any wraps produced...thats simply a fact. You asked if it is reasonable to assume some cutting, etc took place because of any agency, I said depending on what it was. You said it yourself, we don't have a control, another Willard unfettered, so we have to be precise here. I guess that why I am su****ious of your angle T: I may have misunderstood that you were talking about substances, and not hard objects, but i can't help feeling like you are pushing for some definite major object(s) in those gloves that determined Willard's fate. I dont think we can determine that and I explained among other things, why dealing with wraps, versus hands, versus other ways of treating the hands is not a definite.

Try to understand why it is relevent when I ask: Would it make a difference if a hardening agent was put in the hands, or the wraps? It means that treating the hands with linseed oil, oil cloth is very similar to putting chemical agents on the wraps, including up to a point, rubber adhesives, etc.

When you say "hardened wraps" again, if we are really precise we don't know if these wraps were intended to help make the hands hard to not break, or hard to make the punches harder. We have to know exactly what was put to make that conclusion. Rubber like a bicycle tire does not tell us a whole lot. Rubber is not generally used to make a punch harder.

My comment about "years after the fight" is in reference to a hard object in the gloves, not a substance that was used on the wraps. That is what was shot down, you said it yourself.

I don't know how the notion that the tape was taken off makes one predisposed to assuming it was used to inflict damage. Keep in mind that treatment of hands was not a science and what people thought was going on and what was really happening could be two different things. The proof of this is that all those magical treatments did not seem to prevent the problems. Thats why wraps changed over the ages, but thats another discussion.