Who Would get Knocked Down First if prime liston vs prime tyson...........

[Verstyle]

Holy buckets this thread got out of hand quickly!

First of all, Lewis would be a difficult matchup for Tyson...when he was 36 years old. That was the case in that fight and almost everybody knows that. Heck, Mike even put up an impressive rounds 1 and 2. Had he the quickness, the reflexes, and the ability to take away a fighters reach advantage like he had in the late eighties, he would have gotten to Lewis. It wouldn't have been fast, probably round 5 or so, but it still would have happened. Lewis's greatest advantage was the fact that he was an absolute giant among men, and Tyson was a dwarf. Even so, he overcame that obstacle through the highest part of his career over and over again.

Secondly, Liston wasn't that slow, as some people are suggesting. He was slower than Tyson, however, and his object usually wasn't to keep people outside of himself. To suggest, Butterfly, that Liston would just use his reach to keep Tyson away is obviously a sign of weakness in your study. Sonny Liston would likely take the challenge of facing a bulldog like Tyson, and welcome him in to exchange blows. Sonny Liston was on a short fuse, much like Tyson. Once Mike gets in close, which would be inevitable, his forceful combos would put Liston on the mat at least once. Liston's lack of heart would likely reveal itself again while Tyson stands over him. After all, he was a far more intimidating fighter than Ali; who, by the way, I was giving credit to by describing Liston's 1st round KO at his hands. Liston's people and Ali's people were all caught off guard by that punch. If Sonny didn't want to get up, that's his own fault. If it did go in the way that others believe, where Liston would use his reach (even though reach seemed to be irrelevant against a focused Tyson), then Liston would likely put Tyson down first. Either way, both would have to figure something out, and both would get beat up. Bruises and cuts aplenty!

When Mike Tyson was knocked out during his career, it happened after taking consecutive rounds of beatings and clean shots that would have floored any professional fighter. Against Holyfield he was still standing after taking a 7-punch combo that landed cleanly. The referee stopped the fight, and Tyson kept staring straight at Evander without a hint of dizzyness in his eyes. Mike had a tough chin, but he didn't have much heart in the second chapter of his career. Evander even said he could tell Mike Tyson didn't perform like Mike Tyson in either fight. He said, "When the bell rang, I expected him to come at me like he did against everyone else; ferocious, swinging, attacking, much like Dempsey. When he just stood there in front of me with his gloves up, I shot a few jabs to figure him out and he basically stood still. He didn't move much, or bob and weave, and I could tell this wasn't the same Mike. I was disappointed, as I was hoping to give the crowd a battle. In the second fight, it started a little more promising, until he got disqualified..." Holyfield was a 16:1 underdog in that fight, by the way. When a fighter is a 16:1 favorite over another future hall of famer, that proves that he wasn't garbage. While it's true that he did throw his career away when he was given golden opportunities to be the best, he was still a formidable champion.

I'm not a Tyson-hugger, but to those who think he was worthless: you are even worse than the huggers. To say he didn't fight anybody is to say that no professional is worth his salt unless he ends up in the hall of fame, or he fought in the 60's and 70's. Go tell amateurs who are trying to turn professional that they are nothing unless their name is big. I'm sure you'll get a positive reaction out of them. There weren't many big names because the pool was tremendous in the 80's. The fighters were bigger on average, stronger on average, quicker on average, and more fit on average. It had become the Big 10 of boxing, where every fighter had a chance at taking out the other, therefore rendering domination almost impossible. Tyson just happened to reel off 37 straight against them, and 50 wins in his career, which I guess, makes him a bum. It would have been tough for any of the greats to survive in a ring full of superb athletes as opposed to a field full of names. You have to research this for yourselves, but look at what happened to boxing after Ali lost to Spinks in 78. The ratings dropped massively, and boxing was no longer the biggest stage in sports. Even when Ali won the rematch, people didn't care. Ali was a travelling circus by that time, and the up and comers had a tough act to follow. People weren't keeping track of the new crop of fighters during the 80's, because boxing was starting to become rediculous with multiple federations, and guys like Don King ruining the sport front to back. Mike Tyson was literally a saviour to boxing; who brought it back to the forefront of sports.

This just goes to show how (sometimes) underrated Tyson is at times, as he was the only one to emerge as something truly special during that era. Mike Tyson was on the verge of absolute greatness. Unfortunately for him and for his fans, the highest point of his rollercoaster stopped just before the flag could be pulled. Now, the sport is being overlooked right now. That doesn't mean that the fighters are garbage now, they just aren't huge names like everyone is used to seeing. Boxing encounters these lapses every so often, but rest assured, it will come back again when another Tyson, Ali, Roy Jones Jr., etc., who are exciting emerge from a field of athletes.

u gotta be a writer u write just like 1

[Brassangel]

I would like to be a writer, and I'll thank you for saying so. Unfortunately, a person has to drop everything and live off of bologna sandwiches and water to make it as a writer. I just can't afford it; even though my head is swimming with ideas 24:7. Fiction, non-fiction, history, future, sports analysis, you name it, it's in my head.

[butterfly1964]

Holy buckets this thread got out of hand quickly!

First of all, Lewis would be a difficult matchup for Tyson...when he was 36 years old. That was the case in that fight and almost everybody knows that. Heck, Mike even put up an impressive rounds 1 and 2. Had he the quickness, the reflexes, and the ability to take away a fighters reach advantage like he had in the late eighties, he would have gotten to Lewis. It wouldn't have been fast, probably round 5 or so, but it still would have happened. Lewis's greatest advantage was the fact that he was an absolute giant among men, and Tyson was a dwarf. Even so, he overcame that obstacle through the highest part of his career over and over again.

Secondly, Liston wasn't that slow, as some people are suggesting. He was slower than Tyson, however, and his object usually wasn't to keep people outside of himself. To suggest, Butterfly, that Liston would just use his reach to keep Tyson away is obviously a sign of weakness in your study. Sonny Liston would likely take the challenge of facing a bulldog like Tyson, and welcome him in to exchange blows. Sonny Liston was on a short fuse, much like Tyson. Once Mike gets in close, which would be inevitable, his forceful combos would put Liston on the mat at least once. Liston's lack of heart would likely reveal itself again while Tyson stands over him. After all, he was a far more intimidating fighter than Ali; who, by the way, I was giving credit to by describing Liston's 1st round KO at his hands. Liston's people and Ali's people were all caught off guard by that punch. If Sonny didn't want to get up, that's his own fault. If it did go in the way that others believe, where Liston would use his reach (even though reach seemed to be irrelevant against a focused Tyson), then Liston would likely put Tyson down first. Either way, both would have to figure something out, and both would get beat up. Bruises and cuts aplenty!

When Mike Tyson was knocked out during his career, it happened after taking consecutive rounds of beatings and clean shots that would have floored any professional fighter. Against Holyfield he was still standing after taking a 7-punch combo that landed cleanly. The referee stopped the fight, and Tyson kept staring straight at Evander without a hint of dizzyness in his eyes. Mike had a tough chin, but he didn't have much heart in the second chapter of his career. Evander even said he could tell Mike Tyson didn't perform like Mike Tyson in either fight. He said, "When the bell rang, I expected him to come at me like he did against everyone else; ferocious, swinging, attacking, much like Dempsey. When he just stood there in front of me with his gloves up, I shot a few jabs to figure him out and he basically stood still. He didn't move much, or bob and weave, and I could tell this wasn't the same Mike. I was disappointed, as I was hoping to give the crowd a battle. In the second fight, it started a little more promising, until he got disqualified..." Holyfield was a 16:1 underdog in that fight, by the way. When a fighter is a 16:1 favorite over another future hall of famer, that proves that he wasn't garbage. While it's true that he did throw his career away when he was given golden opportunities to be the best, he was still a formidable champion.

I'm not a Tyson-hugger, but to those who think he was worthless: you are even worse than the huggers. To say he didn't fight anybody is to say that no professional is worth his salt unless he ends up in the hall of fame, or he fought in the 60's and 70's. Go tell amateurs who are trying to turn professional that they are nothing unless their name is big. I'm sure you'll get a positive reaction out of them. There weren't many big names because the pool was tremendous in the 80's. The fighters were bigger on average, stronger on average, quicker on average, and more fit on average. It had become the Big 10 of boxing, where every fighter had a chance at taking out the other, therefore rendering domination almost impossible. Tyson just happened to reel off 37 straight against them, and 50 wins in his career, which I guess, makes him a bum. It would have been tough for any of the greats to survive in a ring full of superb athletes as opposed to a field full of names.

This just goes to show how (sometimes) underrated Tyson is at times, as he was the only one to emerge as something truly special during that era. Mike Tyson was on the verge of absolute greatness. Unfortunately for him and for his fans, the highest point of his rollercoaster stopped just before the flag could be pulled.

let me ask you a question? did tyson fight anybody in his career as good as liston? no! IMO lewis can't punch as hard as liston, so saying that tyson gets a beating before hitting the canvas might not apply that much to liston, since liston punches harder than anybody tyson ever fought. everyone with a brain knows that frazier gets a beating before going down, in fact, even after getting a beating he still doesn't go down! but when he fought foreman, frazier didn't really take a beating before going down 6 times, cause it lasted only two rounds. who's to say tyson, who has a weaker chin than frazier, couldn't go down from one of liston's punches.

and you say that tyson was on the verge of absolute greatness? well, so was liston. who stopped tyson? buster douglass, that's who. some one who in his next fight got schooled by a blown-up cruiserweight. who stopped liston? cassius clay (muhammad ali), that's who, the greatest fighter in the history of mankind! hmmm, i wonder who i'd rather be stopped by? now, lets's examine their careers after those losses. tyson lost to holyfield, lewis, williams and mcbride, two hof'ers and two bums. but holyfield and lewis were way past their prime and still embarrased him. liston lost only one fight after ali, to leotis martin, ranked number 3 contender at that time in 1969. liston floored him in the third (or fourth), and was winning. but liston was 37 yrs. old and that took it's toll. liston was worn down later in the fight and was ko'd in the 6th, but after putting up a good fight. so hmmm, i wonder who really got exposed now, tyson or liston, hmmm?

[butterfly1964]

ha yeah right. liston has slow hands. did u see how fast tyson bobbing and weaving was?? not alot of ppl talk about his quick defense skills

yeah, liston has slow hands, give me a break. have you ever seen liston fight? patterson is quick, similar to tyson's speed and movement, and liston destroyed him twice in the first. now he couldn't do that if he didn't have quick hands. also liston rocked cassius clay in the third and clay (ali) moves faster than any hw in history, now if liston had slow hands then he just couldn't do that.

[supaduck]

Sheesh, let go of Ali's nuts for awhile and think. Liston was in his PRIME when Ali beat him. Tyson wasn't anywhere near his, it's obvious, he wasn't fighting like he used to.

[Brassangel]

Obviously I need to stop expending my writing skills and study of the sport as long as there are fanboys on here who will ignore such banter in favor of milking the private parts of their heroes.

Tyson lost to Douglas, that's true. The same Buster Douglas did not go on to fight Holyfield; a very sloppy, heavy, and much slower Douglas met Evander and it showed. Tyson fought Holyfield when Tyson didn't have a single screw in place in his head. Obviously you didn't read Holyfield's dialogue of his fights with Tyson which I so generously spelled out for you in the previous post.

When Tyson fought Lewis, he was 36; hardly in his prime fighting shape. More or less just trying to get out of debt, I imagine. Against Williams, a torn ligament in the knee will do that to a fighter even when one was clearly winning the match before said injury. A fight can go on without a jaw, but not a leg, especially when it's a source of power. Again, he was 38 years old. Against McBride, Tyson was winning that fight clearly. 40 years of age and a world of criticism were too much for him and he just felt like quitting. In any case, none of the "Tysons" listed here are the ones that would have tackled Liston. Sonny at 37 would have beaten Mike at 37. No contest. Mike Tyson at 21 would have been a handful for anyone at any age, especially Sonny Liston.

Oh, and believe it or not, there are several professional boxers in history who have posted quicker movement and hand speed statistics than Cassius Clay (Ali). He was just incredibly fluid and incredibly intelligent. His was a style that didn't have as many bad matchups as the standard walk-and-slug of his predescessors.

[butterfly1964]

Oh, and believe it or not, there are several professional boxers in history who have posted quicker movement and hand speed statistics than Cassius Clay (Ali). He was just incredibly fluid and incredibly intelligent. His was a style that didn't have as many bad matchups as the standard walk-and-slug of his predescessors.

maybe, but were they heavyweights?



























no!

[butterfly1964]

Sheesh, let go of Ali's nuts for awhile and think. Liston was in his PRIME when Ali beat him. Tyson wasn't anywhere near his, it's obvious, he wasn't fighting like he used to.

liston was 32, and barely trained, (not that it would have made that much of a difference).

[Brassangel]

Okay, so you made excuses for Liston; fair enough.

32 doesn't take a fighter out of his element. A guy who hits hard will still hit hard when they get older. If you read the diaries of the people who worked with Liston they say that he didn't train for the Clay (Ali) fights because he felt that, after watching some of them, Ali posed no real threat to his title. Unfortunately for him, he was sorely wrong. Even so, he was given another chance and the result turned out far worse the second time around. By the way, if you score any rounds in favor of Liston over Ali for any reason, I guarantee you they had to do with the solvent that blinded Ali. Ask any trainer: it's speed, not power that diminishes greater with age. The second, and equally important weapon of Tyson's arsenal was his speed. Once he reached his mid-thirties, he didn't have it any more. When Ali reached his 30's, he didn't have it anymore either. Liston didn't rely as much on his speed as he did his power. Speed fades much quicker than power.

Again, my efforts feel wasted unless supaduck posts anymore.

And yes, Butterfly, they were heavyweights. Just do a little research is all I'm asking. Roy Jones posted faster hand speed as an out-of-his-prime heavyweight; I'll throw you that bone. The rest you'll have to search for if you know how. Or maybe some others will graciously assist your search and post it here. Many critics agree that even Tyson cut off the ring faster than Ali danced around it in their respective primes. Whatever...I'm sure that you'll follow this with an equally reduntant "No way was anybody faster..." post of some sort. Just because Ali said he was the fastest doesn't make him so. I'm saying all of this mind you, while still believing that Ali could win 2/3 against any fighter in history.

[butterfly1964]

Okay, so you made excuses for Liston; fair enough.

32 doesn't take a fighter out of his element. A guy who hits hard will still hit hard when they get older. If you read the diaries of the people who worked with Liston they say that he didn't train for the Clay (Ali) fights because he felt that, after watching some of them, Ali posed no real threat to his title. Unfortunately for him, he was sorely wrong. Even so, he was given another chance and the result turned out far worse the second time around. By the way, if you score any rounds in favor of Liston over Ali for any reason, I guarantee you they had to do with the solvent that blinded Ali. Ask any trainer: it's speed, not power that diminishes greater with age. The second, and equally important weapon of Tyson's arsenal was his speed. Once he reached his mid-thirties, he didn't have it any more. When Ali reached his 30's, he didn't have it anymore either. Liston didn't rely as much on his speed as he did his power. Speed fades much quicker than power.

Again, my efforts feel wasted unless supaduck posts anymore.

And yes, Butterfly, they were heavyweights. Just do a little research is all I'm asking. Roy Jones posted faster hand speed as an out-of-his-prime heavyweight; I'll throw you that bone. The rest you'll have to search for if you know how. Or maybe some others will graciously assist your search and post it here. Many critics agree that even Tyson cut off the ring faster than Ali danced around it in their respective primes. Whatever...I'm sure that you'll follow this with an equally reduntant "No way was anybody faster..." post of some sort. Just because Ali said he was the fastest doesn't make him so. I'm saying all of this mind you, while still believing that Ali could win 2/3 against any fighter in history.

roy jones is not a hw, and if he got up to hw, he is not a true hw. and not only that, i don't even agree with the fact that jones's hands were even quicker than ali's in the first place. ali's hands were clocked as fast as robinson's, so that's just bull**** IMO.