Least Skilled ATG?

[Japanese Boxing]

Marciano was actually pretty damn skilled, he is slept on in that department.

The most under-appreciated athlete of the modern day imo.

If I said maybe RJJ would I be wrong? I mean the older he gets the more skills he's obtained but he ran through some dudes with some of the most ridiculous gifts I've ever seen in a human being. He beat James ****ing Toney on physical skills alone. We all know Toney was/is the better boxer and we know Toney was/is one of the most physically gifted athletes of his era. But really, RJJ beat him.

[Capaedia]

I see your point in a way. Norton was a bad stylistic match-up for Ali, as well. However, so was Joe Frazier. Very much so. He had defeated him convincingly the first time and he had come close to a TKO in the 11th. The second fight I'd say it was an off-night for Frazier with Ali doing a lot of holding while being safety first. Who could blame him?! The third could've gone either way. Muhammad perhaps won by a thread as if Eddie Futch wouldn't have stopped it, Ali may've collapsed as he would later say! But, then again neither one of these awesome warriors were at their best this night.

Frazier could no longer see out of his right(?) eye and he was legally blind in his left.

Frazier is my favourite fighter (tied with maybe Louis, Mayweather and Marquez) but he was going to get stopped in the next round.

I think Rocky would pressure Muhammad as Frazier did. But with more of an arsenal. I don't recall who, but a common sparring partner of both Joe Frazier and Rocky Marciano had claimed that Rocky had the more deadly punches. His more powerful body shots and superior right hand would take their toll on Ali late in the fight. I don't think speed would be much of an issue. Marciano was quick enough and had an immense amount of stamina due to his fierce training regiments. His work-rate was high enough to compete with Ali IMO...

I believe Rocky had the far harder right hand. He would throw his entire weight behind it. It was indeed potent.

But as I will explain below, it's not right hands he had trouble with. The only peer Joe has for left hooks in the heavyweight division, is really Joe Louis to be honest.

You say old Joe Walcott gave him 8 rounds but it was really 13. Are you actually familiar with Rocky's fights? If you get a chance put that classic on. You will see Jersey Joe give him hell strategically as he fought a very smart fight and held a great deal. He was also far from shot as you see all the zip, zest, and experience. But, he still could not break the will of the Brockton Blockbuster. Furthermore, you cannot judge Rocky soley based on the Walcott fight. That would be like judging Muhammad soley on the Cooper fight. If we were to do that, we'd perhaps be saying, "Well, if Cooper could floor Ali like that and almost KO him, what would Marciano do to him!"

I said Joe Louis took him 8 rounds. Not Walcott. Walcott peaked late and was very probably at his best against Marciano

If he were to face an Ali, I also think Rocky would make himself very awkward with crouching, bobbing, weaving etc. Ali would not have an easy night.

His superior arsenal may actually be a hindrance considering the ease with which Ali evaded faster punches from men with longer reach and more accuracy. See Floyd Patterson.

The trouble (and beating) Frazier gave him stemmed partly from Ali never having learned how to block a left hand properly. Frazier could have used his right hand, he certainly had one (see: Manuel Ramos/Jerry Quarry/Jimmy Young for good examples of it) but I guess he noticed the difficulty Ali had with it (Cooper)

Also, from seeing Marciano struggling very badly to finish off a very tired (old) Moore who was on the ropes both literally and figuratively, I doubt he would have caught Muhammad with many significant punches at all.

Two more important advantages Frazier has over him. Accuracy and timing.

I don't think it's any coincidence that Moore and Walcott, the two most elusive fighters he fought, also gave him the most trouble. He was slow and he was clumsy (as far as ATGs go). His positive attributes aren't going to give him a win over Ali in my opinion.

I have the computer fight somewhere in my collection. I'm not claiming it has very much relevance. But, it is interesting.

You know they released an alternate video to the rest of the world where Muhammad beat Rocky by UD?

I believe because they didn't want to piss America off by having Muhammad who was hated at the time, defeat one of their past heroes.

Lampley thinks Manny Pac is the greatest ever? Well, I don't quite agree with that but what do you expect him to say about today's biggest HBO house fighter?! He's an exciting little fighter that I'm sure will be remembered very fondly many years from now as most long-term champs are. He's a great fighter, yes. As far as the GOAT, I just don't see it.

Point was, these men are subject to bias. Dunphy was a much better commentator than Lampley (or Cosell) but all three men are proof that it some men, no matter how long they are fans, will always have unreasonable opinions.

My favourite example is Bert "Carnera would KO both Klitschkos" Sugar. May he rest in peace. He bought Boxing Illustrated magazine in 1969 and to the very end had some very questionable opinions. One might say outright ****** and wrong opinions.

[Capaedia]

If I said maybe RJJ would I be wrong? I mean the older he gets the more skills he's obtained but he ran through some dudes with some of the most ridiculous gifts I've ever seen in a human being. He beat James ****ing Toney on physical skills alone. We all know Toney was/is the better boxer and we know Toney was/is one of the most physically gifted athletes of his era. But really, RJJ beat him.

Roy Jones was a lot more skilled than it seems, like Marciano. People are quick to dismiss his skills as physical gifts.

He was a master of feinting and setting traps with footwork. Also just his footwork alone was great.

[rightsideup]

I think it is a couplement of sorts to the Rock that some of us are picking his as the least skilled atg because the man fought with such determination and stamina. He just wore you out or caught you with his best skill his punching power.


that I beleive was a gift from god and polished by the rock





t

[Mintcar923]

Frazier could no longer see out of his right(?) eye and he was legally blind in his left.

Frazier is my favourite fighter (tied with maybe Louis, Mayweather and Marquez) but he was going to get stopped in the next round.



I believe Rocky had the far harder right hand. He would throw his entire weight behind it. It was indeed potent.

But as I will explain below, it's not right hands he had trouble with. The only peer Joe has for left hooks in the heavyweight division, is really Joe Louis to be honest.



I said Joe Louis took him 8 rounds. Not Walcott. Walcott peaked late and was very probably at his best against Marciano



His superior arsenal may actually be a hindrance considering the ease with which Ali evaded faster punches from men with longer reach and more accuracy. See Floyd Patterson.

The trouble (and beating) Frazier gave him stemmed partly from Ali never having learned how to block a left hand properly. Frazier could have used his right hand, he certainly had one (see: Manuel Ramos/Jerry Quarry/Jimmy Young for good examples of it) but I guess he noticed the difficulty Ali had with it (Cooper)

Also, from seeing Marciano struggling very badly to finish off a very tired (old) Moore who was on the ropes both literally and figuratively, I doubt he would have caught Muhammad with many significant punches at all.

Two more important advantages Frazier has over him. Accuracy and timing.

I don't think it's any coincidence that Moore and Walcott, the two most elusive fighters he fought, also gave him the most trouble. He was slow and he was clumsy (as far as ATGs go). His positive attributes aren't going to give him a win over Ali in my opinion.



You know they released an alternate video to the rest of the world where Muhammad beat Rocky by UD?

I believe because they didn't want to piss America off by having Muhammad who was hated at the time, defeat one of their past heroes.



Point was, these men are subject to bias. Dunphy was a much better commentator than Lampley (or Cosell) but all three men are proof that it some men, no matter how long they are fans, will always have unreasonable opinions.

My favourite example is Bert "Carnera would KO both Klitschkos" Sugar. May he rest in peace. He bought Boxing Illustrated magazine in 1969 and to the very end had some very questionable opinions. One might say outright ****** and wrong opinions.

You make a lot of very solid points and I do see why you would have your point of view. Mike Tyson, and to a slightly lesser degree Julio Cesar Chavez introduced me to boxing when I was about 12. I'll admit that probably because of that, Tyson will always be my favorite heavy of all time. Hence, in the boxing ring in the sky I wouldn't mind seeing him knocking out all the ATG's!! I suppose being a fan there's a bit of bias there.

I never quite thought about it but Rocky Marciano did win the title on my birthday hence 23 years before I was born..LOL Besides that, he was just an all-around great person and champion outside of the ring. Well, not to say the others weren't. So could there be a slight bias in my sub-conscious as I seem to rate him higher than a lot of people do? I never quite thought about it. Initially, i didn't like Rocky all that much as he did look clumsy to me at first glance. Its only when I really started watching him that I understood that he did have good albeit very unusual skills. In a way, Tyson also convinced me he was one of the top ATG's. I don't know if you recall but he did say that on the video "Mike Tyson and the Heavyweights.." And, he also admitted he was one of the guys he patterned his style after when he was first developing.

However, as far as old-time fighters go.. When I was a kid I much preferred Joe Louis' style as I just loved that gifted potent jab of his! Also, I thought the way he put devastating combinations together was just downright incredible! Ali had such a gracefull artistic style. It wasn't quite my favorite to watch but the man was just great!! It's really too bad Larry Holmes came along immediately after Muhammad as because of it I think he was sadly a bit underrated.

I'd say honestly I think I like my top-five ATG's quite equally. I suppose its a style thing as far as who would beat who as they're all very great. I really don't see why they had the Marciano-Ali computer fight to begin with as no-one seemed to have the upper-hand if what you're saying is true about the other version. As far as us trying to scrutinize two fighters to a tee and trying our damndest to envision what would really happen is quite fascinating. But, we as others will perhaps always have different viewpoints on a particular fight.

[Bastolio+]

sven ottke for me. people have him in the top 50 but i'd say he's top 90.

[Barn]

Its only when I really started watching him that I understood that he did have good albeit very unusual skills. In a way, Tyson also convinced me he was one of the top ATG's. I don't know if you recall but he did say that on the video "Mike Tyson and the Heavyweights.." And, he also admitted he was one of the guys he patterned his style after when he was first developing.

I am certain it was Dempsey he molded his style on initially, I will happily be corrected though.

Besides that's not even relevant, you rate a fighter based on resume and what they achieved primarily. Rocky falls short in these categories compared to other fighters.

Ranking fighters by mixing head to head ability/skills or whatever is silly in my opinion as things like this are totally subjective. I understand resume is subjective as well but two well versed people should come to a similar conclusion when ranking fighters, or be able to justify why they ranked fighter X over fighter Y when someone else may not. However this cannot be done for Rocky and it cannot possibly be argued he had a better career than Muhammad Ali.

[StarshipTrooper]

sven ottke for me. people have him in the top 50 but i'd say he's top 90.

Who in the hell has Sven Ottke in the top-anything? :thinking9:

Poet

[Bastolio+]

Who in the hell has Sven Ottke in the top-anything? :thinking9:

Poet

he fought some atgs and is undefeated.

[StarshipTrooper]

he fought some atgs and is undefeated.

Huh? What ATGs did Ottke fight? Thomas Tate? :hahahaha9: Sorry, but Ottke's resume is a laughable list with tomato can after tomato can. Please spare me the "Ottke fought ATGs" BS :bull****9:

Poet