Least Skilled ATG?

[Barn]

he was as gifted a puncher as you're likely to see, and he had very good offensive craft.

the idea that he was a one trick pony stemmed mostly from how damn lethal his left hook was. in combinations, or at the right distance, he had a good right hand. he could throw is as an uppercut, or as a straight right hand if it was a single shot. if he caught you at the end of it your head was going to shoot back from the power, if it didn't drop you.

I watched the Yori Boy Campas fight the other day.

bam bam bam bam bam.

Trinidad looked terrific towards the end of that fight, he employed the boxer-puncher role very well.

[Barn]

I also disagree with mentions for LaMotta.

LaMotta had a very good sense of distace. If you watch the first few rounds of Robinson IV. Then you can see Robinson miss a lot of shots as LaMotta stays on the edge of his reach and just needs to move back slightly to completely avoid Robinson's power blows. His crouching defense he often employed was very effective as well as he could slip and duck from shots that he saw coming from far off.

It's incredible how much LaMotta makes Robinson miss in the first few rounds.

Another thing LaMotta employed well was the jab, it seemed to smother Robinson's right hand on occasion and block any opportunity for a right hand as he would bend his knees as he moved in with his jab. Making it difficult for Robinson to counter over the top with his right.

From about 7:50 onward on this clip you can see his skills, and this is a very even fight up until the 8th round or so when LaMotta seriously tires due to having to shift a lot of weight pre-fight.

[JAB5239]

I also disagree with mentions for LaMotta.

LaMotta had a very good sense of distace. If you watch the first few rounds of Robinson IV. Then you can see Robinson miss a lot of shots as LaMotta stays on the edge of his reach and just needs to move back slightly to completely avoid Robinson's power blows. His crouching defense he often employed was very effective as well as he could slip and duck from shots that he saw coming from far off.

It's incredible how much LaMotta makes Robinson miss in the first few rounds.

Another thing LaMotta employed well was the jab, it seemed to smother Robinson's right hand on occasion and block any opportunity for a right hand as he would bend his knees as he moved in with his jab. Making it difficult for Robinson to counter over the top with his right.

From about 7:50 onward on this clip you can see his skills, and this is a very even fight up until the 8th round or so when LaMotta seriously tires due to having to shift a lot of weight pre-fight.

Excellent post and points!

[Mintcar923]

Marciano is not under-rated nor are his wins "downplayed".

He has a decent resume, poor longevity and terrific although short dominance of an average heavyweight era.

Ali has a great resume, terrific dominance, amazing longevity.

Louis has a decent resume, GOAT dominance and longevity.

I don't see how it needs to be made any more complicated than that.

If I'm honest if people do under-rate Marciano it's because they are fed up of people like yourself who rank him the best heavyweight who ever lived.

49 fights is not a very short career. He also fought the best of his era and cleaned out the entire division. There was really nothing much more for him to do except maybe go 50-0. The only thing that can be expected of a champion is to defeat the best of his time. And he had done that without even a single defeat which was a feat that perhaps will never be eclipsed. I just don't understand why someone would think he doesn't deserve to be at the top. OK, so his era wasn't quite as strong as Ali's but neither was Louis', or Holmes, or the Klits etc. I guess its a matter of opinion whether to rate Louis, Ali, or Marciano at #1.

According to Don Dunphy who had called their fights for 50+ years had mentioned he thought any of those three could defeat the other on any given night. However, I give the Rock the edge over both Louis and Ali. Even though Joe was past his prime when he fought him you could see he would still be stylistically a problem for him. As far as Ali, Frazier was by far the most difficult opponent in his career. And Marciano was superior to him in every which way IMO. I don't know how accurate that computer fight of them was back in the '70's. But, it did have Rocky winning by KO.

[Capaedia]

Marciano is not under-rated nor are his wins "downplayed".

He has a decent resume, poor longevity and terrific although short dominance of an average heavyweight era.

Ali has a great resume, terrific dominance, amazing longevity.

Louis has a decent resume, GOAT dominance and longevity.

I don't see how it needs to be made any more complicated than that.

If I'm honest if people do under-rate Marciano it's because they are fed up of people like yourself who rank him the best heavyweight who ever lived.

Looks like you copy-pasted this from my head to be honest Barnburner

[Capaedia]

49 fights is not a very short career. He also fought the best of his era and cleaned out the entire division. There was really nothing much more for him to do except maybe go 50-0. The only thing that can be expected of a champion is to defeat the best of his time. And he had done that without even a single defeat which was a feat that perhaps will never be eclipsed. I just don't understand why someone would think he doesn't deserve to be at the top. OK, so his era wasn't quite as strong as Ali's but neither was Louis', or Holmes, or the Klits etc. I guess its a matter of opinion whether to rate Louis, Ali, or Marciano at #1.

Here's the thing about that number, although you seem to be ignoring it.

Marciano had a 7 year career and if I recall correctly the first fighter that was actually ranked was Carmine Vingo, his 25th fight. To his credit Marciano fractured his skull and put him into hospital.

Let's compare him to Frazier again. He had already fought Machen, Bonavena x2, Doug Jones, Chuvalo, Mathis, Quarry and was going to fight Jimmy Ellis for his 25th fight. His next fight was against Bob Foster, and then against Muhammad Ali.

Frazier fought more ranked competition and also went undefeated for 7 years before losing to Foreman (who would've ended Marciano's winning streak in the same devastating fashion)

According to Don Dunphy who had called their fights for 50+ years had mentioned he thought any of those three could defeat the other on any given night.

Lampley has postulated that Pacquiao may be the best fighter of all time. Do you believe that too?

However, I give the Rock the edge over both Louis and Ali. Even though Joe was past his prime when he fought him you could see he would still be stylistically a problem for him.

He took a prime Marciano 8 rounds as an old man in his very last fight. How does that indicate that?

As far as Ali, Frazier was by far the most difficult opponent in his career. And Marciano was superior to him in every which way IMO. I don't know how accurate that computer fight of them was back in the '70's. But, it did have Rocky winning by KO.

No, Frazier was not by far the most difficult opponent in his career. Forget about the difficulties he had with Cooper or Mildenberger. Norton was arguably more difficult.

Nor was he better in every way.

Frazier was faster, he had a better left hook (that punch, you will find, troubled Ali a lot more than any other except perhaps a good jab) I'm not going to say Frazier was stronger, but his strength was proven against bigger, stronger men. These are the key things about Frazier that troubled Ali. Who would've even at that point have had no trouble dodging Marciano's much slower right hand (and shorter too. Frazier had a 6 inch reach advantage on him)

Frazier also, believe it or not, had the better work-rate.

He would also not have been outboxed by old Walcott.

[New England]

I watched the Yori Boy Campas fight the other day.

bam bam bam bam bam.

Trinidad looked terrific towards the end of that fight, he employed the boxer-puncher role very well.

that was one of the fights that i was thinking about chiefly when i was writing it. oba carr and joppy as well. hell, he actually used his right hand a lot as a power punch


the left hook was the life taker, but the right hand was a big boy punch, too.

[New England]

Here's the thing about that number, although you seem to be ignoring it.

Marciano had a 7 year career and if I recall correctly the first fighter that was actually ranked was Carmine Vingo, his 25th fight. To his credit Marciano fractured his skull and put him into hospital.

Let's compare him to Frazier again. He had already fought Machen, Bonavena x2, Doug Jones, Chuvalo, Mathis, Quarry and was going to fight Jimmy Ellis for his 25th fight. His next fight was against Bob Foster, and then against Muhammad Ali.

Frazier fought more ranked competition and also went undefeated for 7 years before losing to Foreman (who would've ended Marciano's winning streak in the same devastating fashion)



Lampley has postulated that Pacquiao may be the best fighter of all time. Do you believe that too?



He took a prime Marciano 8 rounds as an old man in his very last fight. How does that indicate that?


No, Frazier was not by far the most difficult opponent in his career. Forget about the difficulties he had with Cooper or Mildenberger. Norton was arguably more difficult.

Nor was he better in every way.

Frazier was faster, he had a better left hook (that punch, you will find, troubled Ali a lot more than any other except perhaps a good jab) I'm not going to say Frazier was stronger, but his strength was proven against bigger, stronger men. These are the key things about Frazier that troubled Ali. Who would've even at that point have had no trouble dodging Marciano's much slower right hand (and shorter too. Frazier had a 6 inch reach advantage on him)

Frazier also, believe it or not, had the better work-rate.

He would also not have been outboxed by old Walcott.

1000 big time posts
the WBC will probably give you one of their championship belts now.

[LeG00N]

Rocky Marciano had a very unique style. He didn't have much of a jab and he always fought out of a crouch. He trained to no end. He was fierce and determined which overcame all of his rivals skills. In that respect he didn't really need any more than he had.

I don't know if Ricardo Mayorga is considered an ATG by anybody but he didn't have much skill. Gatti had a lousy defense and I'm sure some regard him as one...

I literally lol'd

[Mintcar923]

Here's the thing about that number, although you seem to be ignoring it.

Marciano had a 7 year career and if I recall correctly the first fighter that was actually ranked was Carmine Vingo, his 25th fight. To his credit Marciano fractured his skull and put him into hospital.

Let's compare him to Frazier again. He had already fought Machen, Bonavena x2, Doug Jones, Chuvalo, Mathis, Quarry and was going to fight Jimmy Ellis for his 25th fight. His next fight was against Bob Foster, and then against Muhammad Ali.

Frazier fought more ranked competition and also went undefeated for 7 years before losing to Foreman (who would've ended Marciano's winning streak in the same devastating fashion)



Lampley has postulated that Pacquiao may be the best fighter of all time. Do you believe that too?



He took a prime Marciano 8 rounds as an old man in his very last fight. How does that indicate that?


No, Frazier was not by far the most difficult opponent in his career. Forget about the difficulties he had with Cooper or Mildenberger. Norton was arguably more difficult.

Nor was he better in every way.

Frazier was faster, he had a better left hook (that punch, you will find, troubled Ali a lot more than any other except perhaps a good jab) I'm not going to say Frazier was stronger, but his strength was proven against bigger, stronger men. These are the key things about Frazier that troubled Ali. Who would've even at that point have had no trouble dodging Marciano's much slower right hand (and shorter too. Frazier had a 6 inch reach advantage on him)

Frazier also, believe it or not, had the better work-rate.

He would also not have been outboxed by old Walcott.

I see your point in a way. Norton was a bad stylistic match-up for Ali, as well. However, so was Joe Frazier. Very much so. He had defeated him convincingly the first time and he had come close to a TKO in the 11th. The second fight I'd say it was an off-night for Frazier with Ali doing a lot of holding while being safety first. Who could blame him?! The third could've gone either way. Muhammad perhaps won by a thread as if Eddie Futch wouldn't have stopped it, Ali may've collapsed as he would later say! But, then again neither one of these awesome warriors were at their best this night.

I think Rocky would pressure Muhammad as Frazier did. But with more of an arsenal. I don't recall who, but a common sparring partner of both Joe Frazier and Rocky Marciano had claimed that Rocky had the more deadly punches. His more powerful body shots and superior right hand would take their toll on Ali late in the fight. I don't think speed would be much of an issue. Marciano was quick enough and had an immense amount of stamina due to his fierce training regiments. His work-rate was high enough to compete with Ali IMO...

You say old Joe Walcott gave him 8 rounds but it was really 13. Are you actually familiar with Rocky's fights? If you get a chance put that classic on. You will see Jersey Joe give him hell strategically as he fought a very smart fight and held a great deal. He was also far from shot as you see all the zip, zest, and experience. But, he still could not break the will of the Brockton Blockbuster. Furthermore, you cannot judge Rocky soley based on the Walcott fight. That would be like judging Muhammad soley on the Cooper fight. If we were to do that, we'd perhaps be saying, "Well, if Cooper could floor Ali like that and almost KO him, what would Marciano do to him!"

If he were to face an Ali, I also think Rocky would make himself very awkward with crouching, bobbing, weaving etc. Ali would not have an easy night. I have the computer fight somewhere in my collection. I'm not claiming it has very much relevance. But, it is interesting. Lampley thinks Manny Pac is the greatest ever? Well, I don't quite agree with that but what do you expect him to say about today's biggest HBO house fighter?! He's an exciting little fighter that I'm sure will be remembered very fondly many years from now as most long-term champs are. He's a great fighter, yes. As far as the GOAT, I just don't see it.