Who was a better role model for Black people? Louis or Ali

[Barn]

I'm not going to bring race into it. Just if either or both were good role models.

To be honest, its roughly equal to my mind. Before focussing on both their excellent qualities consider the following:

Joe Louis:

Bad Points
-Advertised cigarettes and smoked (certainly in retirement.....and yes, they knew back then that ciggies were bad for you!).
-Took and had addictions to many illegal drugs, cocaine etc.
-Was quite a womaniser and was alleged to have beat his wife.

Good Points
-Was a clean fighter in the ring.
-Handled himself with the utmost dignity.
-Donated purses to the war effort.


Muhammed Ali

Bad Points
-Ridiculed certain opponents to the point of being deeply hurtful.
-Prolonged fights with Patterson and Terrell almost cruelly.
-Was also a serial womaniser, certainly cheated on his wives.
-Could be termed a 'racist' towards white people.....at least early on in his life. He was very much influenced by the Black Muslims.

Good Points
-He genuinely stood up for his principles and sacrificed his title and prime years.
-He made black people proud to be black.
-He was extremely generous with his money.
-He lives a clean life in respect of drugs, alcohol etc.


Whether you like Louis's more reserved approach or Ali's in your face approach is largely down to opinion. But based on themselves as role models, this is roughly equal.

Ali also beat his wife.

Joe Louis also helped combat racial tension as his fight with Schmeling was one of the first instances in the U.S.A when blacks and whites stood side by side in supporting a black man against a white.

[New England]

not touching this one with a ten foot pole

i will say that each man made his own mark in his own way and that both guys did have some admirable qualities


both guys transcended the sport during times of racial tension and were compelling figures in the eyes of folk from every background

[Sugarj]

Ali also beat his wife.

Joe Louis also helped combat racial tension as his fight with Schmeling was one of the first instances in the U.S.A when blacks and whites stood side by side in supporting a black man against a white.

I was not aware that Ali beat his wife and I've read most literature and watched most documentaries about him. I gather that he might have torn Sonji's clothes in a row about ideal dress wear for a Muslim woman though.

I'm with you regarding the stance in the US regarding the second Schmelling fight. I've just been more inclined to look at their characters than achievements that may be more incidental to the times.

[JAB5239]

-Was quite a womaniser and was alleged to have beat his wife.

I don't recall ever hearing or reading anything about any alleged allegations of Louis beating his wife. He did admit hitting his lover, actress Lena Horne, in a fit of anger, but that is the ONLY incident I've ever heard of and to my knowledge she never spoke of it and charges were never filed.

[La_Vibora]

I was not aware that Ali beat his wife and I've read most literature and watched most documentaries about him. I gather that he might have torn Sonji's clothes in a row about ideal dress wear for a Muslim woman though.

I'm with you regarding the stance in the US regarding the second Schmelling fight. I've just been more inclined to look at their characters than achievements that may be more incidental to the times.

Actually, wasn't the story that Ali was slapping around his wife when Ray Robinson tried to jump in to calm things down, when Ali just threw Ray out of the way and said "Ray, you're just a welterweight"?

[Hitman Hodgson]

I've always found it strange how boxers are considered role models for kids when they beat people up for a living. Both were great fighters but thats all.

[Sugarj]

I don't recall ever hearing or reading anything about any alleged allegations of Louis beating his wife. He did admit hitting his lover, actress Lena Horne, in a fit of anger, but that is the ONLY incident I've ever heard of and to my knowledge she never spoke of it and charges were never filed.

Thats why I said 'alleged'. I gather that it might have been over a game of golf from memory.

[JAB5239]

Thats why I said 'alleged'. I gather that it might have been over a game of golf from memory.

Yeah, thats the Lena Horne incident you're thinking of.

[Sugarj]

Actually, wasn't the story that Ali was slapping around his wife when Ray Robinson tried to jump in to calm things down, when Ali just threw Ray out of the way and said "Ray, you're just a welterweight"?

That is the incident which I'm referring to. It is documented in Ali's biography 'The Greatest' by Richard Durham.

I gather that everything was behind closed doors and I wasn't aware that Ali 'threw' Robinson out of the way.....though I do remember the 'welterweight' quote, despite Robinson being at least Middleweight in the mid 60s. I don't remember reading that Ali hit her, I gather he tore her dress trying to pull it down from thigh level. I'm sure there was alot of noise though!!

The problem is, that event is dramatised in the film 'The Greatest'.....which is based on the same book. The only problem is, there was no Ray Robinson in the film. So I do wonder how true it might have been.

Ali may well have hit a female in his life, but I'm not aware of any reported incidents.

[joseph5620]

Jesus Christ, from top to bottom both of your condescending shitty post were not only wrong on the premise but they lead you to your ad hominem attack.

Attack a person's character rather than debate the point? Check

Establish your knowledge as superior to mine with your "kid" and "casual fan" remarks? check

Actually argue the point I was trying to make? nope
(which by the way southpaw stinger did perfectly)

and at the end of it all you still have the nerve to tell me to "go learn somjething before posting in the history section

I didn't compare Ali to Hitler nor did I demonize him, I was showing how speaking your mind doesn't necessarily make you a good role model by giving you an example of another historic figure that also spoke his mind.

how hard is that to understand? I would expect a boxing scholar like yourself to be sharp enough to get an analogy made by a "casual fan" like myself.



btw didn't Muhammad Ali beat his wife publicly because her skirt was too short?

Joe Louis beat Lena Horne and had substance abuse issues.Yeah Ali had faults but Louis was no saint either.