prime Jim Jeffries vs prime jack johnson

[Dempsey19]

Who on earth resurrected a 14 year old thread !

Both men said they would lose to each other. This makes me think that perhaps Jeffries ceased to be a racist after getting beaten by Johnson, but again I never met the guy and this discussion is somewhat pointless.

While Jeffries does have a size advantage, Johnson was one of the 5 pre- Ali champs/ 4 pre-60s champs who weighed 6’+ and 200+ pounds in his prime (though he was admittedly the smallest of the 5), so he wasn’t a small man himself and I doubt that’ll determine the whole fight. Johnson was about the size of Briedis while Jeffries was Gassiev-sized, maybe Sanders-sized if I’m being generous.

I think Johnson would win according to the rules of their day.

In a 15 or 12 rounder under modern rules I don’t think Johnson’s style translates too well, so I might favour Jeffries.

It really is a hard question.

[Longhaul]

Win or lose you can be damn sure it would have been a more competitive fight.Jeffries was a shell of himself at that point.

[billeau2]

None of us know what we're talking about when it comes to this question, because none of us have ever seen either of these guys fight. Seeing a few clips on that great PBS documentary doesn't get any of us to the point where we can really evaluate either one of these guys as fighters. Best we can do is compare their records and talk about things like Jeffries' long absence from the ring and his big weight drop in the months before the fight... but even with information like that it's all still just loose speculation.

On the racism issue - yeah, Jeffries was super racist, but as far as I could tell from that PBS show most white people were, back then. Remember that nasty quote from that editorial that the LA Times ran after the Johnson/Jeffries fight, about how black people shouldn't feel good about themselves etc. just because Johnson won? Brutal stuff. I was disgusted, and I'm not even black - it was just so cruel and spiteful...

Where is it said Jeffries was racist? My limited understanding was that Jeffries was not concerned about race when he was actively fighting. Now, when he came back, it is a fact that he was sort of dragged off the farm...leading the charge was Jack London who told Jeffries that he was the hope for the white race against the bawd nasty bwack man Jack Johnson. The thing was a lot of observers seemed to feel that London was the racist and that Jeffries was sort of put on the spot.

Regarding Jeffries ability, it is hard to say...we run into that age old problem where we have very little material to look at. Many people feel that the guy was really strong. there were many who thought he was exceptional. Hard to say.

But i will say this: what gets lost when people say JJ fought smaller guys, is that JJ was himself a strong man. Choyinski decked both of em! lol.

[QueensburyRules]

- -What, 40 % of Jeff's fights against black contenders of his era?

Who is it moaning about that?

[jack p]

Jeffries would have been more of challenge to Jack Johnson in his prime as he was a tremendous physical specimen but he was being out boxed by corbit and fitz in their fights. A serious Jack Johnson would out point Jeff if the judging was fair. It would be a close fight though.

Yes he was outboxed but he did KO them eventually. Gans said Jeffries who employed mostly straight punching was "One of the most accurate punchers in the business"

[ShoulderRoll]

Yes he was outboxed but he did KO them eventually.

Jeffries outweighed Fitzsimmons by 40 lbs and Corbett by 30 lbs.

The gist of it seems to be that they were more skillfull fighters than him. But because of his size and strength he was able to absorb all their punches and eventually just wear them down.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I know it's been said, but the fact that Jeffries was so old and fat, but still made a fight of it should tell us everything we need to know. Not just about how the fight between them would transpire, but how Johnson is atrociously overrated.

110 pounds! That's half my current weight. Probably I could make 200 pounds just by cutting out whiskey for a month.

LOL. yeah. Never. I'm not THAT ******.

Who on earth resurrected a 14 year old thread !

Both men said they would lose to each other. This makes me think that perhaps Jeffries ceased to be a racist after getting beaten by Johnson, but again I never met the guy and this discussion is somewhat pointless.

While Jeffries does have a size advantage, Johnson was one of the 5 pre- Ali champs/ 4 pre-60s champs who weighed 6’+ and 200+ pounds in his prime (though he was admittedly the smallest of the 5), so he wasn’t a small man himself and I doubt that’ll determine the whole fight. Johnson was about the size of Briedis while Jeffries was Gassiev-sized, maybe Sanders-sized if I’m being generous.

I think Johnson would win according to the rules of their day.

In a 15 or 12 rounder under modern rules I don’t think Johnson’s style translates too well, so I might favour Jeffries.

It really is a hard question.

14 years ago, Queenie didn't have half her wrinkles. 40 years ago she didn't have to pay for a single drink at the bar. And probably it all feels like yesterday.

Take it easy when bringing up Father Time around here, please.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Jeffries outweighed Fitzsimmons by 40 lbs and Corbett by 30 lbs.

The gist of it seems to be that they were more skillfull fighters than him. But because of his size and strength he was able to absorb all their punches and eventually just wear them down.

Well, that'll do it...

I can't even imagine that at a Jujitsu tournament. Those boys had balls.

[QueensburyRules]

Well, look at their records. Johnson lost his first fight to a lightweight. Well, Johnson was just a teen, so we can excuse him, but he never faced the best primed heavies during the time he held his title. The best part of his career was when he held the colored title, but even then he could still be beat.

Who was the best prime heavy Johnson ever beat? Should be an easy question, but it's surprisingly weak once you study up. At anyrate, Jeffries only had 21 fights when he retired, and he had beat black contenders Bob Armstrong and Hank Griffin in their primes. He also beat HOFer Peter Jackson, but Jackson was reported to have TB and died a few years later. Jeffrey's did beat a prime Sharkey, Corbett, and Fitz, all HOFers and drew with a prime Choynski when Jeff was just a novice.

It would take exceptional modern boxing or KO skills to beat a prime Jeff. Johnson was a good grappler, but an inconsistant boxer and lacked big KO power. He'd give Jeff a tough fight in the beginning, but as the rounds wore on Johnson would fade and be KOed. Johnson relied on his size advantage against smallish middle types. Jeff was a solid 220 lber and as strong or stronger than Johnson, negating Johnson's grappling strength.

If Johnson had just faced a few of the best when he held the title, perhaps he might have proved to be Jeff's equal. Johnson chose not to face the best.

- -I agree completely.

Shame over 100 yrs later race or nationalism are the prime determinants of individual ratings rather than record.

[cfang]

I think the race issue is a huge factor when looking at johnson and other black fighters of that era. There is no doubt that they had a tremendously tough time of it back then and their achievements are greater for it. It takes a lot of mental toughness to win a fight when the whole crowd are white and out for your blood.

Jeffries did win a lot of his fights against his contemporaries by being the bigger and stronger man. Fitz and corbett were both beating him handily and they were significantly smaller.

I believe that johnson carried many fighters of the time just to avoid riots if he showed how superior he was. Look at him holding up ketchel as an example He could have finished jeffries earlier if he'd wanted to. I think he was just a big leap forward as a boxer and he'd have beaten jeffries pretty handily prime for prime.

Oh and someone said jeffries ran 100m in ten seconds lol Well the word record at his time was 10.8 so a little bit of an exaggeration there.