prime Jim Jeffries vs prime jack johnson

[butterfly1964]

None of us know what we're talking about when it comes to this question, because none of us have ever seen either of these guys fight. Seeing a few clips on that great PBS documentary doesn't get any of us to the point where we can really evaluate either one of these guys as fighters. Best we can do is compare their records and talk about things like Jeffries' long absence from the ring and his big weight drop in the months before the fight... but even with information like that it's all still just loose speculation.

On the racism issue - yeah, Jeffries was super racist, but as far as I could tell from that PBS show most white people were, back then. Remember that nasty quote from that editorial that the LA Times ran after the Johnson/Jeffries fight, about how black people shouldn't feel good about themselves etc. just because Johnson won? Brutal stuff. I was disgusted, and I'm not even black - it was just so cruel and spiteful...

so your'e saying that just because racism was the norm back then, that is was ok?

[Da Iceman]

jeffries had a mind he should've figured out racism was wrong

[butterfly1964]

jeffries had a mind he should've figured out racism was wrong

exactly. some people have this weird idea that just because you're recognized as an all-time great athlete in the era up to like 1920 that it was ok to be racist. i mean i hate people like ty cobb's guts for the stuff he used to do to black ball-players and black women.

[Dynamite76]

Probably Jack, but it would be a tougher battle for him.

[Da Iceman]

i wouldnt even put jeffries in the top 200

[butterfly1964]

i wouldnt even put jeffries in the top 200

ok, now that's kind of overdoing it. you really cannot name 200 fighters that were better than jeffries.

[Kid Achilles]

But what do his personal racist beliefs have to do with him being a great fighter or not? They should have no bearing on that at all.

[Da Iceman]

jeffries wasnt a great fighter he didnt fight anybody but paper champions. he was one himself, and he ran from johnson, like burns and all the other whites

[Kid Achilles]

Right, so Tom Sharkey, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Corbett, and Joe Choynski (who KO'ed Jack Johnson and later mentored him in prison) were nobodies. Granted Jeffries didn't give us much fights during his short career, but by his 6th fight he was in the ring with Choynski.

In his 11th fight he was trading punches with Tom Sharkey, the best slugger of his era.

Consider how many nobodies the average great heavyweight champion fought on his way up and then appreciate the fact that Jeffries cut almost immediately to the cream of the crop of his division and bypassed the tradition we now refer to as "record padding".

[Da Iceman]

jack johnson wouldve got up from that choynski knockdown but the police stopped it