Camacho as a sfw

[ShoulderRoll]

- -Nah, as a young man @ 130 with a nose free of the candy that came with the $$$, Macho had speed, footwork, and a natural fighting nuance that can't be taught.

Invincible!

What great wins did he have at 130?

[billeau2]

What great wins did he have at 130?

look at the tape.

Edit...Sorry had to leave the premises. You can see how fast Camacho and Floyd both were when slowing the tape down on some of their fights.

[ShoulderRoll]

look at the tape.

Edit...Sorry had to leave the premises. You can see how fast Camacho and Floyd both were when slowing the tape down on some of their fights.

The infamous eye test.

It's easy to look flashy and spectacular against a certain level of opposition. Camacho was certainly fast but that's why I asked what great wins he had at 130.

[QueensburyRules]

The infamous eye test.

It's easy to look flashy and spectacular against a certain level of opposition. Camacho was certainly fast but that's why I asked what great wins he had at 130.

- -You certainly slow. Didn't take a legit loss until he got tubby at 140 and that was against JCChavez Sr.

Fetch yer Ol' Granny's eye glasses and have her read you his record.

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/607

[ShoulderRoll]

- -You certainly slow. Didn't take a legit loss until he got tubby at 140 and that was against JCChavez Sr.

Fetch yer Ol' Granny's eye glasses and have her read you his record.

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/607

So looking at his Boxrec, which of his wins at 130 do you consider great?

[billeau2]

The infamous eye test.

It's easy to look flashy and spectacular against a certain level of opposition. Camacho was certainly fast but that's why I asked what great wins he had at 130.

Its not about the flash, its about the things one can do in the ring. It is a legitimate way of looking at skills. Im not saying the other avenues don't matter, but footage can show a lot. If we just took the records of Floyd, and Jones, neither one has a particularly good record for an ATG. We certainly can apply the same criteria to Camacho when looking at his actual ability.

[ShoulderRoll]

Its not about the flash, its about the things one can do in the ring. It is a legitimate way of looking at skills. Im not saying the other avenues don't matter, but footage can show a lot. If we just took the records of Floyd, and Jones, neither one has a particularly good record for an ATG. We certainly can apply the same criteria to Camacho when looking at his actual ability.

I don't know what Floyd has to do with this.

Yes, I admit that Hector Camacho threw some of the fastest combinations you will ever see.

But I'm simply asking what great wins he had at 130. Was he able to make use of his talents to shine against great opposition?

It's a topic that arose when talking about Finito Lopez in that thread. I think it's valid to ask it here too.

[billeau2]

I don't know what Floyd has to do with this.

Yes, I admit that Hector Camacho threw some of the fastest combinations you will ever see.

But I'm simply asking what great wins he had at 130. Was he able to make use of his talents to shine against great opposition?

It's a topic that arose when talking about Finito Lopez in that thread. I think it's valid to ask it here too.

My apologies i should have explained the "Floyd" connection better. I was not implying that you as a Floyd fan made certain assumptions, I realize that could be interpreted so let me clear that up.

Let me tell you a story to illustrate this connection, grab your milk and cookies, have a seat.... So I am watching a Floyd fight one day and they play back a particular spot... You see Floyd smiling, expecting a punch, moving off line, and setting. Then I realize that the actual speed this is taking place at is lightening fast. That may have been the day I realized how good Floyd was. This was back when he was 130ish and slightly above.

You could see in that tape deliberation....at a speed, and in a context that was truly humbling to imagine. The tape showed how special Floyd and his sense of distance and timing was. I think that very fast guys like Camacho and Floyd often have to be deconstructed to be appreciated. The things they can do, the things that they often set up, are incredible and pass by most of us. That was my point.

Certainly you can keep parroting that Camacho never fought anyone much at that weight... and while this might be a damning factor for some things, it is not necessarily a damning factor for noticing other elements of greatness.

[ShoulderRoll]

My apologies i should have explained the "Floyd" connection better. I was not implying that you as a Floyd fan made certain assumptions, I realize that could be interpreted so let me clear that up.

Let me tell you a story to illustrate this connection, grab your milk and cookies, have a seat.... So I am watching a Floyd fight one day and they play back a particular spot... You see Floyd smiling, expecting a punch, moving off line, and setting. Then I realize that the actual speed this is taking place at is lightening fast. That may have been the day I realized how good Floyd was. This was back when he was 130ish and slightly above.

You could see in that tape deliberation....at a speed, and in a context that was truly humbling to imagine. The tape showed how special Floyd and his sense of distance and timing was. I think that very fast guys like Camacho and Floyd often have to be deconstructed to be appreciated. The things they can do, the things that they often set up, are incredible and pass by most of us. That was my point.

Certainly you can keep parroting that Camacho never fought anyone much at that weight... and while this might be a damning factor for some things, it is not necessarily a damning factor for noticing other elements of greatness.

Elements of greatness are one thing. But Queenie flat out claimed that Camacho at his best was invincible at 130. That he would have had Azumah Nelson spinning like a top.

Maybe, based on his speed and footwork and "natural fighting nuance" that would have happened. But maybe not.

Did Salvador Sanchez and Pernell Whitaker manage to do that to Nelson? And did Camacho ever do it at 130 to anyone close to the level of an Azumah?

At some point the hyperbole has to be backed up with solid evidence. Beyond just saying to look at the tape.

[john l]

Elements of greatness are one thing. But Queenie flat out claimed that Camacho at his best was invincible at 130. That he would have had Azumah Nelson spinning like a top.

Maybe, based on his speed and footwork and "natural fighting nuance" that would have happened. But maybe not.

Did Salvador Sanchez and Pernell Whitaker manage to do that to Nelson? And did Camacho ever do it at 130 to anyone close to the level of an Azumah?

At some point the hyperbole has to be backed up with solid evidence. Beyond just saying to look at the tape.

His best win was Limon who was a pretty good fighter, but a bit past it. His best win imo was at 35 vs Ramirez he was really on that night and had Ramirez turning in circles, and even dropped the iron chin vet(also a very un PC interview that was a bit funny). No doubt though that his best ended pretty early due to dedication more then the often repeated Rosairo "ruining him" line, and he don't have a lot of good scalps. At his VERY best he COULD have beat Alexis just due to styles the great AA had slow feet and could be outboxed against a VERY good boxer. Nelson who I don't rate quite as high as AA, would of had a tougher style for Camacho imo, and its hard with Camacho's limited prime to pick him in that fight. With Camacho you have to kinda go by the "eye test" more because of his very short prime, but he was a very good boxer with underrated chin and even toughness. Will admit he was a VERY early fav of mine as a kid when he was at his best. About the only good point Queenie made was that he was a natural fighter, and was very relaxed in the ring which allowed him to fight better then expected and longer even when he was not in good shape.