20 Billion;Is there an argument for Carlos Ortiz being the #1 LW of all time?

[IronDanHamza]

I beg the question, can an argument be made for Carlos Ortiz to be the greatest Lightweight of all time? Key word being arguably.

As we all know it is a stacked division, possibly THE most stacked division in the illustrious history of Boxing. So it’s difficult.

For many years I have felt that Carlos Ortiz is criminally underrated. For me, he is minimum Top 5 Lightweight, lowest being #4.

But the more I re-look into him the more I think there is an argument for him being arguably the greatest Lightweight of all time.

I can already hear the bellowing in the distance; “WHAT ABOUT DURAN!” “WHAT ABOUT LEONARD” “WHAT ABOUT GANS!”. Before you pierce your lungs, yes I know, Duran, Leonard and Gans are amongst the greatest Lightweights of all time and the last time I did a list I had them and #1 #2 and #3.

I currently consider Benny Leonard to be the greatest Lightweight of all time. His resume is exceptional and he is most definitely argubally the greatest Lightweight of all time, as is Gans and as is Duran.

But, does anyone else not consider Carlos Ortiz’ Lightweight resume to be absolutely incredible? I would argue it is one of the most exceptional Lightweight resumes I have ever seen. Let’s take a look;

Hof’ers that Carlos Ortiz beat;

Joe Brown
Ismael Laguna x2
Dulio Loi * -(fight was at 140)
Sugar Ramos x2
Flash Elorde x2
Nicolino Locche* - (Fight was at 140 and was a draw although allegedly Ortiz clearly won the fight)

Along with other Top ranked and excellent opposition such as;

Kenny Lane x2
Johnny Busso
Douglas Valiant
And others.

Joe Brown and Ismael Laguna also being argubally Top 20 ATG Lightweights. To add to that.

That’s 9 HOF’ers and a real exceptional list of fighters on his resume. Other than Benny Leonard, can we say this for any other Lightweight in history? I’m not so sure we can.

Joe Gans had astonishing longevity, which is what raises the bar to him being argubally the greatest at Lightweight. Along with stand out excellent wins over ATG LW Battling Nelson and HOF’er Young Griffo. Along with many other solid wins over Top ranked opposition during his lengthy reign.

I also think Roberto Duran is arguably the greatest Lightweight of all time. But, if he is, which I think he is, I don’t see why Carlos Ortiz can’t be.
Duran beat HOF’ers such as Ken Buchanan and Estaban DeJesus x2, along with many Top ranked competition to add to that exceptional Lightweight resume.

But, I’m going to argue, and I anticipate many will disagree, definitely at first glance, but I’m going to argue that Ortiz resume at Lightweight is better than Duran’s....

Ortiz’ resume speaks for itself; Wins 9 HOF’ers at the weight. Duran has wins over 3, which is sensational in it’s own right which is why he has an argument, along with many other top wins but I can’t see how he has more quality, or even quantity than Ortiz at the weight. I honestly believe that if Duran has an argument then Ortiz must also.

I think Duran is a great fighter, one of the greatest Lightweights. But, I must say that I think that his overwhelmingly exciting style and incredible skills and H2H ability causes him to be a little overrated at Lightweight. This isn’t an insult; I just really can’t see how he is ‘unquestionably’ the greatest at Lightweight like alot of people do. I think he could easily be ranked at #1 but could also be ranked as low at #4, IMO. But no lower than that.

Again, I stress I am not saying that Carlos Ortiz is the greatest Lightweight of all time. But what I am saying is there’s an argument for him. I mean, where’s the weakness? His resume? Speaks for itself. H2H? I would give him a chance against ANYONE at Lightweight H2H. His longevity? He has a long list of title defences.

Ortiz ticks every box, and in my opinion has one of the most outstanding resumes in Lightweight history.

For me, Leonard, Gans, Duran and Ortiz are a league above the other Lightweights. Such as; Whitaker, Williams, Welsh, Canzoneri, Armstrong, McFarland etc etc etc. And any of them can be argued to be #1, IMO.
I made this thread because I believe Ortiz is slept on so much. And has one of the all time best resumes at Lightweight.

Can Ortiz be argued as the greatest Lightweight of all time? Is there at least some argument? If not, why? Argue against my breakdown to support it.

Discuss.

[DarkTerror88]

I beg the question, can an argument be made for Carlos Ortiz to be the greatest Lightweight of all time? Key word being arguably.

As we all know it is a stacked division, possibly THE most stacked division in the illustrious history of Boxing. So it’s difficult.

For many years I have felt that Carlos Ortiz is criminally underrated. For me, he is minimum Top 5 Lightweight, lowest being #4.

But the more I re-look into him the more I think there is an argument for him being arguably the greatest Lightweight of all time.

I can already hear the bellowing in the distance; “WHAT ABOUT DURAN!” “WHAT ABOUT LEONARD” “WHAT ABOUT GANS!”. Before you pierce your lungs, yes I know, Duran, Leonard and Gans are amongst the greatest Lightweights of all time and the last time I did a list I had them and #1 #2 and #3.

I currently consider Benny Leonard to be the greatest Lightweight of all time. His resume is exceptional and he is most definitely argubally the greatest Lightweight of all time, as is Gans and as is Duran.

But, does anyone else not consider Carlos Ortiz’ Lightweight resume to be absolutely incredible? I would argue it is one of the most exceptional Lightweight resumes I have ever seen. Let’s take a look;

Hof’ers that Carlos Ortiz beat;

Joe Brown
Ismael Laguna x2
Dulio Loi * -(fight was at 140)
Sugar Ramos x2
Flash Elorde x2
Nicolino Locche* - (Fight was at 140 and was a draw although allegedly Ortiz clearly won the fight)

Along with other Top ranked and excellent opposition such as;

Kenny Lane x2
Johnny Busso
Douglas Valiant
And others.

Joe Brown and Ismael Laguna also being argubally Top 20 ATG Lightweights. To add to that.

That’s 9 HOF’ers and a real exceptional list of fighters on his resume. Other than Benny Leonard, can we say this for any other Lightweight in history? I’m not so sure we can.

Joe Gans had astonishing longevity, which is what raises the bar to him being argubally the greatest at Lightweight. Along with stand out excellent wins over ATG LW Battling Nelson and HOF’er Young Griffo. Along with many other solid wins over Top ranked opposition during his lengthy reign.

I also think Roberto Duran is arguably the greatest Lightweight of all time. But, if he is, which I think he is, I don’t see why Carlos Ortiz can’t be.
Duran beat HOF’ers such as Ken Buchanan and Estaban DeJesus x2, along with many Top ranked competition to add to that exceptional Lightweight resume.

But, I’m going to argue, and I anticipate many will disagree, definitely at first glance, but I’m going to argue that Ortiz resume at Lightweight is better than Duran’s....

Ortiz’ resume speaks for itself; Wins 9 HOF’ers at the weight. Duran has wins over 3, which is sensational in it’s own right which is why he has an argument, along with many other top wins but I can’t see how he has more quality, or even quantity than Ortiz at the weight. I honestly believe that if Duran has an argument then Ortiz must also.

I think Duran is a great fighter, one of the greatest Lightweights. But, I must say that I think that his overwhelmingly exciting style and incredible skills and H2H ability causes him to be a little overrated at Lightweight. This isn’t an insult; I just really can’t see how he is ‘unquestionably’ the greatest at Lightweight like alot of people do. I think he could easily be ranked at #1 but could also be ranked as low at #4, IMO. But no lower than that.

Again, I stress I am not saying that Carlos Ortiz is the greatest Lightweight of all time. But what I am saying is there’s an argument for him. I mean, where’s the weakness? His resume? Speaks for itself? H2H? I would give him a chance against ANYONE at Lightweight H2H. His longevity? He has a long list of title defences.

Ortiz ticks every box, and in my opinion has one of the most outstanding resumes in Lightweight history.

For me, Leonard, Gans, Duran and Ortiz are a league above the other Lightweights. Such as; Whitaker, Williams, Welsh, Canzoneri, Armstrong, McFarland etc etc etc. And any of them can be argued to be #1, IMO.
I made this thread because I believe Ortiz is slept on so much. And has one of the all time best resumes at Lightweight.

Can Ortiz be argued as the greatest Lightweight of all time? Is there at least some argument? If not, why? Argue against my breakdown to support it.

Discuss.

A couple of things.

1.) screw you, winning ANOTHER competition





2) I personally rate Ortiz at number 4.
-1: Gans. Gans is as versatile as they come. He also carried many of his white opponents to maintain popularity and such. He also was THE master of feinting. His longevity,resume, and being decades ahead of his time give them number 1 spot for me.
-2: Leonard. Winning the lightweight crown, then coming out of retirement to simply kick ass and FSU among with one of the most complete resumes EVER. Number 2 spot ahoy!
-3: Duran. To watch lightweight prime Duran in action is to be amazed. The amount of physical strength in uncanny. He can rough around any lightweight. He also had slick headmovement and defense on the inside, and great counterpunching. A favorite against any lightweight h2h. He gets the bronze.
-4: Ortiz. The perfect example of a fast boxerpuncher, Ortiz has a great resume, a long reign and good skills all around h2h. HOWEVER. Because Ortiz is inferior in the resume to Leonard, inferior in the reign to Gans, and inferior to Duran in the h2h. It lands him close fourth. I could see him as 3 MAYBE 2. But i cannot see him at 1.

At lightweight, these four stand a head above the rest. Like Louis and Ali at Heavy, Moore, Charles and Tunney at LHW, Hagler Monzon Gredb and Robinson at MW etc etc.

Also one of my fav fighters.

[IronDanHamza]

A couple of things.

1.) screw you, winning ANOTHER competition





2) I personally rate Ortiz at number 4.
-1: Gans. Gans is as versatile as they come. He also carried many of his white opponents to maintain popularity and such. He also was THE master of feinting. His longevity,resume, and being decades ahead of his time give them number 1 spot for me.
-2: Leonard. Winning the lightweight crown, then coming out of retirement to simply kick ass and FSU among with one of the most complete resumes EVER. Number 2 spot ahoy!
-3: Duran. To watch lightweight prime Duran in action is to be amazed. The amount of physical strength in uncanny. He can rough around any lightweight. He also had slick headmovement and defense on the inside, and great counterpunching. A favorite against any lightweight h2h. He gets the bronze.
-4: Ortiz. The perfect example of a fast boxerpuncher, Ortiz has a great resume, a long reign and good skills all around h2h. HOWEVER. Because Ortiz is inferior in the resume to Leonard, inferior in the reign to Gans, and inferior to Duran in the h2h. It lands him close fourth. I could see him as 3 MAYBE 2. But i cannot see him at 1.

At lightweight, these four stand a head above the rest. Like Louis and Ali at Heavy, Moore, Charles and Tunney at LHW, Hagler Monzon Gredb and Robinson at MW etc etc.

Also one of my fav fighters.

The competition is much richer this time around.

I agree that those four are above the pack, IMO.

But, can you not see an argument for him? I seriously can't see how there isn't.

Like I said, I feel Leonard is #1. His resume is unmatched. But, other than Leonard (I may be wrong in this I'm going off top of the head) but I think, that no one, including Gans and Duran have beaten as many HOF'ers as Ortiz has. THAT is quite a feat.

Ortiz doesn't lack in any catergory, he is absolutely complete. Resume, H2H, longevity, Skills, you name it.

I only make this thread because I feel Ortiz has become so underrated historically. And like I said although I rank Leonard #1 and feel the Top 4 or interchangable. I think with a resume like Ortiz' it MUST be argubale. I mean, it has to be!

[JAB5239]

I beg the question, can an argument be made for Carlos Ortiz to be the greatest Lightweight of all time? Key word being arguably.

As we all know it is a stacked division, possibly THE most stacked division in the illustrious history of Boxing. So it’s difficult.

For many years I have felt that Carlos Ortiz is criminally underrated. For me, he is minimum Top 5 Lightweight, lowest being #4.

But the more I re-look into him the more I think there is an argument for him being arguably the greatest Lightweight of all time.

I can already hear the bellowing in the distance; “WHAT ABOUT DURAN!” “WHAT ABOUT LEONARD” “WHAT ABOUT GANS!”. Before you pierce your lungs, yes I know, Duran, Leonard and Gans are amongst the greatest Lightweights of all time and the last time I did a list I had them and #1 #2 and #3.

I currently consider Benny Leonard to be the greatest Lightweight of all time. His resume is exceptional and he is most definitely argubally the greatest Lightweight of all time, as is Gans and as is Duran.

But, does anyone else not consider Carlos Ortiz’ Lightweight resume to be absolutely incredible? I would argue it is one of the most exceptional Lightweight resumes I have ever seen. Let’s take a look;

Hof’ers that Carlos Ortiz beat;

Joe Brown
Ismael Laguna x2
Dulio Loi * -(fight was at 140)
Sugar Ramos x2
Flash Elorde x2
Nicolino Locche* - (Fight was at 140 and was a draw although allegedly Ortiz clearly won the fight)

Along with other Top ranked and excellent opposition such as;

Kenny Lane x2
Johnny Busso
Douglas Valiant
And others.

Joe Brown and Ismael Laguna also being argubally Top 20 ATG Lightweights. To add to that.

That’s 9 HOF’ers and a real exceptional list of fighters on his resume. Other than Benny Leonard, can we say this for any other Lightweight in history? I’m not so sure we can.

Joe Gans had astonishing longevity, which is what raises the bar to him being argubally the greatest at Lightweight. Along with stand out excellent wins over ATG LW Battling Nelson and HOF’er Young Griffo. Along with many other solid wins over Top ranked opposition during his lengthy reign.

I also think Roberto Duran is arguably the greatest Lightweight of all time. But, if he is, which I think he is, I don’t see why Carlos Ortiz can’t be.
Duran beat HOF’ers such as Ken Buchanan and Estaban DeJesus x2, along with many Top ranked competition to add to that exceptional Lightweight resume.

But, I’m going to argue, and I anticipate many will disagree, definitely at first glance, but I’m going to argue that Ortiz resume at Lightweight is better than Duran’s....

Ortiz’ resume speaks for itself; Wins 9 HOF’ers at the weight. Duran has wins over 3, which is sensational in it’s own right which is why he has an argument, along with many other top wins but I can’t see how he has more quality, or even quantity than Ortiz at the weight. I honestly believe that if Duran has an argument then Ortiz must also.

I think Duran is a great fighter, one of the greatest Lightweights. But, I must say that I think that his overwhelmingly exciting style and incredible skills and H2H ability causes him to be a little overrated at Lightweight. This isn’t an insult; I just really can’t see how he is ‘unquestionably’ the greatest at Lightweight like alot of people do. I think he could easily be ranked at #1 but could also be ranked as low at #4, IMO. But no lower than that.

Again, I stress I am not saying that Carlos Ortiz is the greatest Lightweight of all time. But what I am saying is there’s an argument for him. I mean, where’s the weakness? His resume? Speaks for itself? H2H? I would give him a chance against ANYONE at Lightweight H2H. His longevity? He has a long list of title defences.

Ortiz ticks every box, and in my opinion has one of the most outstanding resumes in Lightweight history.

For me, Leonard, Gans, Duran and Ortiz are a league above the other Lightweights. Such as; Whitaker, Williams, Welsh, Canzoneri, Armstrong, McFarland etc etc etc. And any of them can be argued to be #1, IMO.
I made this thread because I believe Ortiz is slept on so much. And has one of the all time best resumes at Lightweight.

Can Ortiz be argued as the greatest Lightweight of all time? Is there at least some argument? If not, why? Argue against my breakdown to support it.

Discuss.

Another great thread!

[RubenSonny]

Another great thread!

Agreed, well done Dan, how long is there left?

[JAB5239]

A couple of things.

1.) screw you, winning ANOTHER competition





2) I personally rate Ortiz at number 4.
-1: Gans. Gans is as versatile as they come. He also carried many of his white opponents to maintain popularity and such. He also was THE master of feinting. His longevity,resume, and being decades ahead of his time give them number 1 spot for me.
-2: Leonard. Winning the lightweight crown, then coming out of retirement to simply kick ass and FSU among with one of the most complete resumes EVER. Number 2 spot ahoy!
-3: Duran. To watch lightweight prime Duran in action is to be amazed. The amount of physical strength in uncanny. He can rough around any lightweight. He also had slick headmovement and defense on the inside, and great counterpunching. A favorite against any lightweight h2h. He gets the bronze.
-4: Ortiz. The perfect example of a fast boxerpuncher, Ortiz has a great resume, a long reign and good skills all around h2h. HOWEVER. Because Ortiz is inferior in the resume to Leonard, inferior in the reign to Gans, and inferior to Duran in the h2h. It lands him close fourth. I could see him as 3 MAYBE 2. But i cannot see him at 1.

At lightweight, these four stand a head above the rest. Like Louis and Ali at Heavy, Moore, Charles and Tunney at LHW, Hagler Monzon Gredb and Robinson at MW etc etc.

Also one of my fav fighters.

Very nice reply!

[JAB5239]

Agreed, well done Dan, how long is there left?

I think there are about two weeks left. Im really hoping to keep getting more threads so we don't have to nix this contest. There have been a couple of threads that I found exceptionally well done and would hate to see anyone lose a chance at making those points after coming up with such good topics.

[IronDanHamza]

This is my list currently;

1. Benny Leonard
2. Carlos Ortiz
3. Joe Gans
4. Roberto Duran

Used to be;

1. Roberto Duran
2. Joe Gans
3. Benny Leonard
4. Carlos Ortiz

Other than Leonard I feel Ortiz has the best resume of all time at Lightweight.

[JAB5239]

This is my list currently;

1. Benny Leonard
2. Carlos Ortiz
3. Joe Gans
4. Roberto Duran

Used to be;

1. Roberto Duran
2. Joe Gans
3. Benny Leonard
4. Carlos Ortiz

Other than Leonard I feel Ortiz has the best resume of all time at Lightweight.

Im off to the gym, but when I get back I'll make a case for Gans and his resume.

[McGoorty]

I beg the question, can an argument be made for Carlos Ortiz to be the greatest Lightweight of all time? Key word being arguably.

As we all know it is a stacked division, possibly THE most stacked division in the illustrious history of Boxing. So it’s difficult.

For many years I have felt that Carlos Ortiz is criminally underrated. For me, he is minimum Top 5 Lightweight, lowest being #4.

But the more I re-look into him the more I think there is an argument for him being arguably the greatest Lightweight of all time.

I can already hear the bellowing in the distance; “WHAT ABOUT DURAN!” “WHAT ABOUT LEONARD” “WHAT ABOUT GANS!”. Before you pierce your lungs, yes I know, Duran, Leonard and Gans are amongst the greatest Lightweights of all time and the last time I did a list I had them and #1 #2 and #3.

I currently consider Benny Leonard to be the greatest Lightweight of all time. His resume is exceptional and he is most definitely argubally the greatest Lightweight of all time, as is Gans and as is Duran.

But, does anyone else not consider Carlos Ortiz’ Lightweight resume to be absolutely incredible? I would argue it is one of the most exceptional Lightweight resumes I have ever seen. Let’s take a look;

Hof’ers that Carlos Ortiz beat;

Joe Brown
Ismael Laguna x2
Dulio Loi * -(fight was at 140)
Sugar Ramos x2
Flash Elorde x2
Nicolino Locche* - (Fight was at 140 and was a draw although allegedly Ortiz clearly won the fight)

Along with other Top ranked and excellent opposition such as;

Kenny Lane x2
Johnny Busso
Douglas Valiant
And others.

Joe Brown and Ismael Laguna also being argubally Top 20 ATG Lightweights. To add to that.

That’s 9 HOF’ers and a real exceptional list of fighters on his resume. Other than Benny Leonard, can we say this for any other Lightweight in history? I’m not so sure we can.

Joe Gans had astonishing longevity, which is what raises the bar to him being argubally the greatest at Lightweight. Along with stand out excellent wins over ATG LW Battling Nelson and HOF’er Young Griffo. Along with many other solid wins over Top ranked opposition during his lengthy reign.

I also think Roberto Duran is arguably the greatest Lightweight of all time. But, if he is, which I think he is, I don’t see why Carlos Ortiz can’t be.
Duran beat HOF’ers such as Ken Buchanan and Estaban DeJesus x2, along with many Top ranked competition to add to that exceptional Lightweight resume.

But, I’m going to argue, and I anticipate many will disagree, definitely at first glance, but I’m going to argue that Ortiz resume at Lightweight is better than Duran’s....

Ortiz’ resume speaks for itself; Wins 9 HOF’ers at the weight. Duran has wins over 3, which is sensational in it’s own right which is why he has an argument, along with many other top wins but I can’t see how he has more quality, or even quantity than Ortiz at the weight. I honestly believe that if Duran has an argument then Ortiz must also.

I think Duran is a great fighter, one of the greatest Lightweights. But, I must say that I think that his overwhelmingly exciting style and incredible skills and H2H ability causes him to be a little overrated at Lightweight. This isn’t an insult; I just really can’t see how he is ‘unquestionably’ the greatest at Lightweight like alot of people do. I think he could easily be ranked at #1 but could also be ranked as low at #4, IMO. But no lower than that.

Again, I stress I am not saying that Carlos Ortiz is the greatest Lightweight of all time. But what I am saying is there’s an argument for him. I mean, where’s the weakness? His resume? Speaks for itself. H2H? I would give him a chance against ANYONE at Lightweight H2H. His longevity? He has a long list of title defences.

Ortiz ticks every box, and in my opinion has one of the most outstanding resumes in Lightweight history.

For me, Leonard, Gans, Duran and Ortiz are a league above the other Lightweights. Such as; Whitaker, Williams, Welsh, Canzoneri, Armstrong, McFarland etc etc etc. And any of them can be argued to be #1, IMO.
I made this thread because I believe Ortiz is slept on so much. And has one of the all time best resumes at Lightweight.

Can Ortiz be argued as the greatest Lightweight of all time? Is there at least some argument? If not, why? Argue against my breakdown to support it.

Discuss.

I think you saw Jose Torres who picked Carlos @ #1 LW ever, it's on an old dvd........ I don't think he's no 1, I'm certain about that. What I'm not certain about is where to put him, I believe he was the stand out LW of the 60's, so that's above his contemporaries and near-contemporaries like, Joe Brown, Bud Smith, even Jimmy Carter (another who doesn't get near enough credit,... great fighter.),... It get's harder the further you go back. Of the earlier fighters there's HOT competition. Benny Leonard, Joe Gans and Packey McFarland are in front,... After him, there's probably only Duran, who I have above him........ that's 4 off the top of my head,.. his competition is for about the next four places, and there's Ten guys trying to get in there, but I'll just mention his nearest rivals, Battling Nelson, Ike Williams, Ad Wolgast, Tony Canzoneri and Armstrong and McLarnin,........... that's pretty hot right there, and Jimmy Carters up there and maybe Beau Jack.............---------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the moment, I think he is either 6th or 7th as I think Canzoneri was a bit better,... at least his competition makes me have Tony at no 5,. with McFarland at 4, Duran at 3, Gans at No 2,............. Benny Leonard is the King of the Lightweights.