20 Billion;Is there an argument for Carlos Ortiz being the #1 LW of all time?

[Steak]

Ortiz is a fighter that is very underrated by most people. Actually, he feels more unmentioned altogether moreso than underrated.

Although he had a HELL of a run at LW, you have to take into consideration a few things.
-Ramos was past his best weight and probably had seen better days.(still a damn good win)
-Ortiz wasnt really at Lightweight for a long time, and he wasnt as dominant there as other Lightweight champions.(but that of course could be attributed to his very high level of competition
-Two of Locche's best wins, Doi and Locche, were at 140lbs
-Lightweight is one of the most stacked weight classes of all time

Here is something I wrote about him, http://aaboxing.blogspot.com/2011/05...los-ortiz.html, sorry if I spam these links I just dont want to repeat myself over and over.

In terms of purely quality of opposition at LW, Ortiz just might take the cake. But other Lightweights had better longevity and dominance than Ortiz. still, you can make a fair case for Ortiz being #1 simply based on quality of opposition.

in fact, if you just look at top 5 wins at Lightweight...
-Joe Brown
-Lagunax2
-Elordex2
-Ramosx2
-Kenny Lane
...thats pretty difficult to match.

[IronDanHamza]

Ortiz is a fighter that is very underrated by most people. Actually, he feels more unmentioned altogether moreso than underrated.

Although he had a HELL of a run at LW, you have to take into consideration a few things.
-Ramos was past his best weight and probably had seen better days.(still a damn good win)
-Ortiz wasnt really at Lightweight for a long time, and he wasnt as dominant there as other Lightweight champions.(but that of course could be attributed to his very high level of competition
-Two of Locche's best wins, Doi and Locche, were at 140lbs
-Lightweight is one of the most stacked weight classes of all time

Here is something I wrote about him, http://aaboxing.blogspot.com/2011/05...los-ortiz.html, sorry if I spam these links I just dont want to repeat myself over and over.

In terms of purely quality of opposition at LW, Ortiz just might take the cake. But other Lightweights had better longevity and dominance than Ortiz. still, you can make a fair case for Ortiz being #1 simply based on quality of opposition.

in fact, if you just look at top 5 wins at Lightweight...
-Joe Brown
-Lagunax2
-Elordex2
-Ramosx2
-Kenny Lane
...thats pretty difficult to match.

I read your piece on him. Very very good read.

Unmentioned, excellent word to describe Carlos Ortiz. Exactly why I made this thread.

I agree about Ramos and his best weight wasn't Lightweight but considering his only real loss at that time was to Saldivar and Ramos was still very good at that point. I rank the win very highly.

He wasn't as dominant but he was pretty dominant in my opinion. 9 title defences, pretty good. Of course that doesn't match Gans, for example, but he does tick that dominance box in my book. The only person he didn't get the better of in a trilogy was Loi.

140 was a reasonably new Division at that point. Atleast in terms of rankings. Which is why I included them.

I'm glad you agree there's an argument. I really think there is.

I mean, if there is an argument for Duran (which there absolutely is, no question) I can't see how there isn't one for Ortiz.

[IronDanHamza]

I think you saw Jose Torres who picked Carlos @ #1 LW ever, it's on an old dvd........ I don't think he's no 1, I'm certain about that. What I'm not certain about is where to put him, I believe he was the stand out LW of the 60's, so that's above his contemporaries and near-contemporaries like, Joe Brown, Bud Smith, even Jimmy Carter (another who doesn't get near enough credit,... great fighter.),... It get's harder the further you go back. Of the earlier fighters there's HOT competition. Benny Leonard, Joe Gans and Packey McFarland are in front,... After him, there's probably only Duran, who I have above him........ that's 4 off the top of my head,.. his competition is for about the next four places, and there's Ten guys trying to get in there, but I'll just mention his nearest rivals, Battling Nelson, Ike Williams, Ad Wolgast, Tony Canzoneri and Armstrong and McLarnin,........... that's pretty hot right there, and Jimmy Carters up there and maybe Beau Jack.............---------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the moment, I think he is either 6th or 7th as I think Canzoneri was a bit better,... at least his competition makes me have Tony at no 5,. with McFarland at 4, Duran at 3, Gans at No 2,............. Benny Leonard is the King of the Lightweights.

I consider Packey McFarland, Ike Williams, Freddie Welsh, Tony Canzoneri and Henry Armstrong in my Top 10. But I don't see how they are ranked above Ortiz (for Lightweight alone, I would rank almost all of those above Ortiz of all time) Maybe Ike Williams I would have close. In terms of resume, atleast.

I don't think any of those fighters listed above beat as many HOF'ers at Lightweight as Carlos Ortiz did.

Again I'm going off top of the head, but If my memory is serving me correctly, Ortiz is second to Benny Leonard. Who I rank at #1.

Take into consideration I am judging this by resume almost solely. H2H match up's being a very distant second.

Although, I feel Ortiz could compete with ANYONE at Lightweight H2H. And ATLEAST win one out of three.

[Scott9945]

I think you saw Jose Torres who picked Carlos @ #1 LW ever, it's on an old dvd........ I don't think he's no 1, I'm certain about that. What I'm not certain about is where to put him, I believe he was the stand out LW of the 60's, so that's above his contemporaries and near-contemporaries like, Joe Brown, Bud Smith, even Jimmy Carter (another who doesn't get near enough credit,... great fighter.),... It get's harder the further you go back. Of the earlier fighters there's HOT competition. Benny Leonard, Joe Gans and Packey McFarland are in front,... After him, there's probably only Duran, who I have above him........ that's 4 off the top of my head,.. his competition is for about the next four places, and there's Ten guys trying to get in there, but I'll just mention his nearest rivals, Battling Nelson, Ike Williams, Ad Wolgast, Tony Canzoneri and Armstrong and McLarnin,........... that's pretty hot right there, and Jimmy Carters up there and maybe Beau Jack.............---------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the moment, I think he is either 6th or 7th as I think Canzoneri was a bit better,... at least his competition makes me have Tony at no 5,. with McFarland at 4, Duran at 3, Gans at No 2,............. Benny Leonard is the King of the Lightweights.

Torres did say that at the end of the DVD "Champions Forever: The Latin Legends". For the sake of full disclosure, it should be mentioned that Torres and Ortiz are both Puerto Ricans.

Ortiz was one of the first world champions I ever saw on TV and you didn't need to have a seasoned eye to see that he was truly great.

[IronDanHamza]

Torres did say that at the end of the DVD "Champions Forever: The Latin Legends". For the sake of full disclosure, it should be mentioned that Torres and Ortiz are both Puerto Ricans.

Ortiz was one of the first world champions I ever saw on TV and you didn't need to have a seasoned eye to see that he was truly great.

I haven't seen that DVD. Worth picking up?

I wasn't aware Jose Torres said that. I wasn't aware anyone felt Ortiz was the greatest of all time at Lightweight.

Most think it's Duran but if not then Leonard or Gans.

Like I said, I personally have Leonard #1. For me, his resume is unmatched.

But, I absolutely believe with a resume as strong as Ortiz' that he is in the argument.

[Scott9945]

I haven't seen that DVD. Worth picking up?

I wasn't aware Jose Torres said that. I wasn't aware anyone felt Ortiz was the greatest of all time at Lightweight.

Most think it's Duran but if not then Leonard or Gans.

Like I said, I personally have Leonard #1. For me, his resume is unmatched.

But, I absolutely believe with a resume as strong as Ortiz' that he is in the argument.

I haven't watched that DVD in at least 10 years. But I did enjoy it and it was reasonably well made. If you can pick it up cheap it would be well worth it. However if you are a serious collector, you might not see any footage that is new to you. But it will still be entertaining. I might just pop that in to review again soon now that I've got it on my mind.

[IronDanHamza]

I haven't watched that DVD in at least 10 years. But I did enjoy it and it was reasonably well made. If you can pick it up cheap it would be well worth it. However if you are a serious collector, you might not see any footage that is new to you. But it will still be entertaining. I might just pop that in to review again soon now that I've got it on my mind.

Chances are I will have seen most of the footage on there but that really doesn't bother me at all.

I love watching anything, even if I have seen it before and there is just different angles on it etc.

I mean, I have watched all the footage I have atleast 100 times each. The fighters I like even more probably triple that minimum.

So I'll definitely look into picking it up.

[DarkTerror88]

Just found out that my Puerto Rican friend's Dad was a stable mate of Ortiz. :O

[McGoorty]

Torres did say that at the end of the DVD "Champions Forever: The Latin Legends". For the sake of full disclosure, it should be mentioned that Torres and Ortiz are both Puerto Ricans.

Ortiz was one of the first world champions I ever saw on TV and you didn't need to have a seasoned eye to see that he was truly great.

True, actually they are not just Puerto Ricans, but come from the same home town. Sounds like a town that a man would have to be careful in.

[McGoorty]

Chances are I will have seen most of the footage on there but that really doesn't bother me at all.

I love watching anything, even if I have seen it before and there is just different angles on it etc.

I mean, I have watched all the footage I have atleast 100 times each. The fighters I like even more probably triple that minimum.

So I'll definitely look into picking it up.

Actually Torres says that on the HBO Greatest WW'S & LW's as well,...... good video, but their lists are a bit preposterous in the fact that many greats miss out to lesser fighters, I'll see if I can upload the dvd's on youtube,,,,, if it's legal....... I have some stuff not available at the moment,,,,,,,, why do they keep deleting fight films on youtube ????.... I'm glad I downloaded the Darcy V Chip fight while I had the chance, as well as all the Sakuraba that Scumbag Dana White deleted (he never ever had Saku's contract so by what right ??. I'd like to strangle him)....... Anyway people, download everything when it first appears or it won't be around long,......... Hey, could I re-upload Darcy V Chip without getting in trouble ???????....... I will if I can, and all the other gems I have.