Sometimes I Wonder Why Did Roy Ever Waste His Time Fighting Fighters Like.....

[IMDAZED]

He was playing the part of a HW champion. His intention was to put on muscle, not fat. The fact that he was making a movie changes nothing. When you bulk up the intention is to convert as much of that food as possible into muscle, instead of fat. Dude just bulked up wrong. Which doesnt mean that he didn't put on muscle, it just means that he had a thick layer of fat covering them.

Dont want to write such a long post, but it can't be helped:

When you put yourself in a position when you use up more energy (calories) than you consume, say due to exercise, your body has no choice but to look for internal sources of energy to make up the difference. It's first source of energy is fat. The problem with fat burning is that your body tries to hold onto the fat. What happens is as your body becomes stronger it starts to run more efficiently and needs less energy. In other words the rate at which you burn fat starts to slow down. Which is why you have to increase the intensity of your workouts to offset this mechanism.

Due to the fact that your body needs fat for other processes like metabolizing vitamins, it will only exclusively burn fat up to a point, when your bodyfat reserves start hitting really low levels it starts to look to another energy source. The next source is protein (your muscles)

Its the reason why athletes in endurance sports look lean and not muscle bound. Its also the reason why its so damn hard to pack on muscle in boxing and the reason why boxers resort to steroids.

Translation it was harder for Tarver, because he had to burn his body fat before he could start to burn his muscles. If Jones kept in the same shape then he would of burned muscle from day one seeing as how his body fat was so low, 6%.

Yeah...and you don't think that affected Tarver against Hopkins? And...what does this have to do with Roy Jones? Totally different scenarios. By the time Roy Jones moved up to heavyweight, he had already was struggling to make 175, where he had been for nearly seven years. Roy Jones had hundreds of amateur bouts, competed in the Olympics and had been fighting professionally for 14 years. His reflexes had long been slipping and his legs were done. The Ruiz bout helped hide those losses because Ruiz was a slow ass heavyweight. Trying to get to 175 again, coupled with his slowing down, is what hurt him. It happens to everyone. And he had a pretty tough fight with Tarver that first time where he ate plenty of clean, hard punches to the head and body. And then he lost at 35, which is pretty typical. What is your issue with this notion?

[Toney616]

I don't recall Johnson being 190 - can you verify? Once you do, we'll get right to the point.

Unofficial HBO weigh in for Johnson-Cloud

You're saying this as if it benefited him, whether he said it did or didn't.

I said there was no long term damage due to him doing it. And even under those circumstances he gave Calzaghe the toughest fight of his career. He also gave a damned good account of himself against Thompson.

Actually, Tarver definitely spoke on the weight.

Im talking long term. He was definately back to normal by the time of the Tarver-Woods fight. It should also be pointed out that Manny Steward, who knows a lot about weight loss, ridiculed the idea that it can cause permanent damage. Check out his commentary for Tarver-Dawson II

I'm not sure what your point is here? That the weight loss didn't affect him? Prior to the first Tarver fight, he was asked in the locker room how he felt (typical question) and he responded, "1-10 I feel like a seven." And it was the first thing he mentioned post fight.

Being drained for ONE fight is not the same thing as being permanently damaged because of it.

But more importantly, Jones had already slowed down quite a bit by then. My friend, Roy Jones wasn't in his prime.

The fact that he was slowing down before he moved up should tell you that the cause wasn't the weight loss.

Barely got hit and never fought a KO artist. What a genius that guy was. To fight professionally for over 20 years and avoid the two.

By division:
mw: Julian Jackson, Gerald McClellan
smw: Liles, Benn, Cordoba
lhw: Tarver, Darius M
hw: Lewis, Tua, Vitali
The above guys were the best punchers he shared divisions with. How many of them did he fight again?

Second, Lou Del Valle hit pretty ****ing hard.

Who did he ever ko worth mentioning.

He took plenty of hard shots in the first Tarver fight. Or was that an illusion?

In the second fight Tarver stepped in and through a left hook, which I'm sure was a lot harder than those straight lefts he landed between Jones guard.

[IMDAZED]

Unofficial HBO weigh in for Johnson-Cloud

Yeah, and then Johnson moved down and fought Allan Green. Not Antonio Tarver.

I said there was no long term damage due to him doing it. And even under those circumstances he gave Calzaghe the toughest fight of his career. He also gave a damned good account of himself against Thompson.

And? What does this have to do with Roy Jones? Were the scenarios the same? Chris Eubank was retired when he got the call to fight Calzaghe - you don't know what weight he was at. And how do you know it didn't affect him?

Im talking long term. He was definately back to normal by the time of the Tarver-Woods fight. It should also be pointed out that Manny Steward, who knows a lot about weight loss, ridiculed the idea that it can cause permanent damage. Check out his commentary for Tarver-Dawson II

Back to normal is some idea you invented. Roy Jones wasn't getting any younger and was at the end of his rope. He wasn't 28, he was 35.

Being drained for ONE fight is not the same thing as being permanently damaged because of it.

That's nice and if you point me to where I said something about "permanently damaged" then this will have some sort of relevance.

The fact that he was slowing down before he moved up should tell you that the cause wasn't the weight loss.

Again, no one said that was the only cause so...what are you arguing again?

By division:
mw: Julian Jackson, Gerald McClellan
smw: Liles, Benn, Cordoba
lhw: Tarver, Darius M
hw: Lewis, Tua, Vitali
The above guys were the best punchers he shared divisions with. How many of them did he fight again? Who did he ever ko worth mentioning.

This is too simplistic even for you. A light heavyweight moving up to fight any heavyweight is going to take hard punches. James Toney is a hard puncher. And yes, Lou Del Valle hit very hard with his left hand, whether you like to believe it or not. Hell even David Telesco. As for your question regarding who Del Valle KO'ed worth mentioning, I think you need to watch fighters before making judgements. Take a look at Naseem Hamed's resume...who did he KO that was worth him getting all that acclaim about his power? Washed up Vasquez or Johnson? I think you get my point.

In the second fight Tarver stepped in and through a left hook, which I'm sure was a lot harder than those straight lefts he landed between Jones guard.

Yeah, that was one hell of a left hand by Tarver. A monster shot. So anyway, Jones took plenty of hard shots in the first Tarver fight. Not like he hadn't taken a hard punch before.

[Toney616]

Yeah...and you don't think that affected Tarver against Hopkins?

For ONE fight.

And...what does this have to do with Roy Jones? Totally different scenarios.

Its the same thing

By the time Roy Jones moved up to heavyweight, he had already was struggling to make 175,

?????
Is that why he stayed at lhw post ruiz for the next 7 years?.

where he had been for nearly seven years. Roy Jones had hundreds of amateur bouts, competed in the Olympics and had been fighting professionally for 14 years. His reflexes had long been slipping and his legs were done.

His reflexes slipped after be got busted using steroids. He was perfectly fine during the Harding fight

The Ruiz bout helped hide those losses because Ruiz was a slow ass heavyweight.

Its hard to use the Ruiz fight, the fact that he was carrying that extra mass was bound to slow him down, as it slows down any fighter moving up.

Trying to get to 175 again, coupled with his slowing down, is what hurt him. It happens to everyone.

When you throw in the fact that he has most likely has been using steroids for a while then all bets are off.

And he had a pretty tough fight with Tarver that first time where he ate plenty of clean, hard punches to the head and body.

How many tough fights did that guy have in his career? I can only think of one going into Tarver II and that was Tarver I. One tough fight and now his shot? What about all the wars Toney has been in? How many ko losses are on his record?

And then he lost at 35, which is pretty typical. What is your issue with this notion?

What has his age got to do with anything here? How many top fighters with solid chins started getting knocked out by one punch when they hit 35?

[IMDAZED]

For ONE fight.

Its the same thing

?????
Is that why he stayed at lhw post ruiz for the next 7 years?.

His reflexes slipped after be got busted using steroids. He was perfectly fine during the Harding fight

Its hard to use the Ruiz fight, the fact that he was carrying that extra mass was bound to slow him down, as it slows down any fighter moving up.

When you throw in the fact that he has most likely has been using steroids for a while then all bets are off.

How many tough fights did that guy have in his career? I can only think of one going into Tarver II and that was Tarver I. One tough fight and now his shot? What about all the wars Toney has been in? How many ko losses are on his record?

What has his age got to do with anything here? How many top fighters with solid chins started getting knocked out by one punch when they hit 35?

You can't have it both ways. Can't argue that he was slower in the Ruiz fight because he was carrying extra mass and then say his reflexes slipped after getting busted for roids (in 2000?). Which is it? And did getting busted for roids mean he never did them again? You do realize no one even knew about the test until years later? And if youc an take one person's example and compare it to another without any context (Eubank/Tarver versus Jones' weight loss), how did James Toney's first steroid bust affect him? Did that kill his reflexes?

[Toney616]

Yeah, and then Johnson moved down and fought Allan Green. Not Antonio Tarver.

What has that got to do with anything? He was around 42 and had been fighting as a lhw for around 5 years.

And? What does this have to do with Roy Jones? Were the scenarios the same? Chris Eubank was retired when he got the call to fight Calzaghe - you don't know what weight he was at. And how do you know it didn't affect him?

He wasnt retired. He had fought earlier that year and was in fact getting ready for another lhw fight. Which he dropped for the chance to fight Calzaghe.

As for the weight, he obviously was way above 180 lbs. Which is why he had to consult a doctor before under going his preperations for the Calzaghe fight.
source: Chris Eubanks autobiography

Eubank never commented on it affecting him and he looked fine during his fights with Thompson. Where he moved all the way up to cw.

Back to normal is some idea you invented. Roy Jones wasn't getting any younger and was at the end of his rope. He wasn't 28, he was 35.

A 35 year old fighter than had only one tough fight in his whole career.
How many tough fights has Glen Johnson had now at 42?

That's nice and if you point me to where I said something about "permanently damaged" then this will have some sort of relevance.

Aren't you the one claiming that Jones was permanently damaged from the weight loss? And I the one claiming that if he was drained it was only for one fight?

Again, no one said that was the only cause so...what are you arguing again?

He was slowing down before he moved back down from heavyweight. Whatever process was going on with him that was causing him to slow down started before he moved down. So I cannot see how him slowing down can be blamed on the weight loss. He was fine by Tarver II

This is too simplistic even for you. A light heavyweight moving up to fight any heavyweight is going to take hard punches.

During the Ruiz fight how many hard flush punches did he take on the chin?

James Toney is a hard puncher.

No, his not. He wears you down and stops you late, like he did to Nunn.

And yes, Lou Del Valle hit very hard with his left hand

He never koed anyone worth mentioning and his ko % is nothing special.

Yeah, that was one hell of a left hand by Tarver. A monster shot. So anyway, Jones took plenty of hard shots in the first Tarver fight. Not like he hadn't taken a hard punch before.

Of course. More than likely one of the hardest punches he ever took, which is why he got koed. I believe he got koed simply because he got caught with a hard punch, not because he was damaged by weight loss.

[IMDAZED]

What has that got to do with anything? He was around 42 and had been fighting as a lhw for around 5 years.

He wasnt retired. He had fought earlier that year and was in fact getting ready for another lhw fight. Which he dropped for the chance to fight Calzaghe.

As for the weight, he obviously was way above 180 lbs. Which is why he had to consult a doctor before under going his preperations for the Calzaghe fight.
source: Chris Eubanks autobiography

Eubank never commented on it affecting him and he looked fine during his fights with Thompson. Where he moved all the way up to cw.

A 35 year old fighter than had only one tough fight in his whole career.
How many tough fights has Glen Johnson had now at 42?

Aren't you the one claiming that Jones was permanently damaged from the weight loss? And I the one claiming that if he was drained it was only for one fight?

He was slowing down before he moved back down from heavyweight. Whatever process was going on with him that was causing him to slow down started before he moved down. So I cannot see how him slowing down can be blamed on the weight loss. He was fine by Tarver II

During the Ruiz fight how many hard flush punches did he take on the chin?

No, his not. He wears you down and stops you late, like he did to Nunn.

He never koed anyone worth mentioning and his ko % is nothing special.

Of course. More than likely one of the hardest punches he ever took, which is why he got koed. I believe he got koed simply because he got caught with a hard punch, not because he was damaged by weight loss.

Whether you want to believe Roy Jones had never taken a hard punch before in his career or never had a tough fight prior to Tarver, it doesn't change the fact that he was already 35 when he suffered the loss to Tarver, had been fighting professionally for nearly 15 years, and hadn't taken a break in the sport since he was about seven years old. That includes hundreds of amateur bouts, 50 professional ones and countless hours taking punishment in the gym. Oh and not to mention, lost his reflexes when he got busted for roids back in 2000 (using your logic). Hence, he was not the same fighter at all, no matter how you slice it.

[Toney616]

You can't have it both ways. Can't argue that he was slower in the Ruiz fight because he was carrying extra mass and then say his reflexes slipped after getting busted for roids (in 2000?). Which is it?

Both.

He had clearly slipped a notch from the Harding fight to the Harmon fight.
Carrying that extra weight slows you down as it does to all fighters who move up Qawi, Nunn etc.

And did getting busted for roids mean he never did them again? You do realize no one even knew about the test until years later?

Who knows? And as I said before when steroids are involved lord knows what the side effects are

And if youc an take one person's example and compare it to another without any context (Eubank/Tarver versus Jones' weight loss), how did James Toney's first steroid bust affect him? Did that kill his reflexes?

Outside of Jones's claim, what evidence do you have to back up your argument?

I doubt if Toney was using them long term. Dude clearly didnt know what he was doing which is why he got caught.

[IMDAZED]

B]Both.[/B]

He had clearly slipped a notch from the Harding fight to the Harmon fight.
Carrying that extra weight slows you down as it does to all fighters who move up Qawi, Nunn etc.

So we agree that he slipped then slipped again. Excellent!

Who knows? And as I said before when steroids are involved lord knows what the side effects are

Who knows? Why you do, don't you? Well...you do for Roy, right?

Outside of Jones's claim, what evidence do you have to back up your argument?

I doubt if Toney was using them long term. Dude clearly didnt know what he was doing which is why he got caught.

Yet he got caught...twice. Right. Given that he's had more fights than any top fighter in recent history, that's no surprise. BTW, the likely reason he got caught against Ruiz was because the fight was moved up. If they had kept the original date, it would've cycled out of his system. So no, I'm not going with the assumption that he didn't use them long term yet got caught twice. But of course Jones did because...you say so.

[Toney616]

You see Toney, when you go so hard to pick a fighter apart, you sometimes end up picking your own argument apart. Follow:

Don King refused to offer Roy Jones a fight against any of his fighters unless Jones gave him options (see: your own post regarding Benn a couple pages ago). Hence, any offer from King was turned down and any offer from Jones to one of King's fighters was turned down unless King had options.

Where is it mentioned anywhere that King was demanding options? He can't do that for mandatory defenses only for voluntary title defense.

Bernard Hopkins faced a similar situation as MW champ (trying to fight Joppy and Holmes) and eventually had to give in to fight Tito.

Nope that's not true. It was Lou Dibella acting as Hopkins advisor that got him into Kings mw tournament. He got a signing bonus of 200K and gave King 2 options for fights. Which were for Holmes and Tito. He got paid around 1m for Holmes and 2.5m for Tito. After that he agreed to sign another contract with King which was so good he stabbed his boy Dibella in the back.

In that same fashion, Jones eventually had to give up rights to King to fight Ruiz. I told you before that Hasim Rahman was Jones' mandatory, which is right.

No. He wasn't. Vitali was. When Jones won the belt this was the scenario

Jones - wba champion
1 Vitali
2 Tua
3 Rahman
4 Ruiz

The WBA ordered Rahman-Tua III for the mandatory challenger to Jones' crown. And of course King pulled those strings to have the WBA do so because Rahman was his fighter.

No

Vitali was the no 1 and he vacated his spot to fight for Lewis's wbc belt. Which left the no 1 spot vacant. Next in line was Tua who started petitioning to the wba to be made Jones' mando, seeing as how Jones was due to make a defense and he was the highest ranked contender. Jones said he was going to move down and if they tried to take the belt then he would take the wba to court.

So the wba ordered Tua (no 2) vs Rahman(no 3) for the right to be the mandatory. Tua would pull out due to a falling out with his team over financial irregularities, which is where Ruiz stepped into the picture. He would win and become the interm wba champ. After Jones-Tarver 1, the wba would ask Jones if he was going to defend his belt and he said no. So Ruiz was bumped back to the wba champ again.

And King had further rights on Jones, including the two Tarver bouts. But...what is your point here?

I dont know who the promoter was for Jones-Tarver I. I doubt if it was King, because I dont recall him being in the ring or his DKP sign anywhere during that fight.

King was the promoter for Tarver II, because Jones was playing hardball over the purse split. So it went to a purse bid, which King won

That Jones ducked Vitali? He negotiated with Holyfield who felt the amount he was making ($8 million) was too little given the pot.

After he won the belt he was notified by the wba that he had 180 days to make a mandatory defense - his mando was Vitali K

Also whats the point of him fighting washed up Holyfield then? Dude was 2-3-1 in his last 7 fights. With his most recent fight ending with a shut out loss to Byrd. Who was also calling out Jones

When that fight failed to materialize, he moved back down to LHW. So why bring up Vitali and then say well it never could've happened?

It failed to materalize because Jones wanted 82% of the purse and King wanted options for all of Evanders championship fights if he won. King couldnt do that with Vitali because he was Jones mando and Jones was legally obliged to make that defense. You cannot demand options on fighters for mandatory fights.

I don't understand your point here but maybe you should apply that logic elsewhere .

Says the guy who playing fast and lose with the facts?