Sometimes I Wonder Why Did Roy Ever Waste His Time Fighting Fighters Like.....

[Toney616]

So we agree that he slipped then slipped again. Excellent!

Slowing down because you are carrying extra weight doesnt mean you have permanently slipped. If you move back down that factor becomes moot. Compare Nunn vs Butler at lhw to the Nunn who moved back down and fought Scully at smw.

Who knows? Why you do, don't you? Well...you do for Roy, right?

Jones most likely had been using roids for a while when he got busted. Dude juiced to fight a green contender off all people. Toney obviously didn't know what he was doing, which is why he got caught. How can you compare a long term roider with a guy who used them for one fight?

Yet he got caught...twice. Right.

Does that sound to you like he knows what his doing? the guys that get caught are the guys who dont know what they are doing or the get unlucky like Jones and hall did.

Given that he's had more fights than any top fighter in recent history, that's no surprise. BTW, the likely reason he got caught against Ruiz was because the fight was moved up. If they had kept the original date, it would've cycled out of his system.

What was the original date?

[IMDAZED]

Where is it mentioned anywhere that King was demanding options? He can't do that for mandatory defenses only for voluntary title defense.

He can demand options for any contract someone signs with one of his fighters. It's up to the fighter to agree. Who told you that a promoter can only ask for future options in a voluntary defense?

Nope that's not true. It was Lou Dibella acting as Hopkins advisor that got him into Kings mw tournament. He got a signing bonus of 200K and gave King 2 options for fights. Which were for Holmes and Tito. He got paid around 1m for Holmes and 2.5m for Tito. After that he agreed to sign another contract with King which was so good he stabbed his boy Dibella in the back.

DiBella was his advisor, never his promoter. Why do you think he stabbed his boy in the back? For Don King who he railed against for years? Think about it for a second.

No. He wasn't. Vitali was. When Jones won the belt this was the scenario

Jones - wba champion
1 Vitali
2 Tua
3 Rahman
4 Ruiz

No

Vitali was the no 1 and he vacated his spot to fight for Lewis's wbc belt. Which left the no 1 spot vacant. Next in line was Tua who started petitioning to the wba to be made Jones' mando, seeing as how Jones was due to make a defense and he was the highest ranked contender. Jones said he was going to move down and if they tried to take the belt then he would take the wba to court.

Uhh..no. This is what Jones did: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/box...ones_lewis_ap/

Obviously he had intentions on staying at heavyweight. BTW, the WBA belt wasn't just handed back to him when he did decide to return to 175. He had to fight Tarver for it.

So the wba ordered Tua (no 2) vs Rahman(no 3) for the right to be the mandatory. Tua would pull out due to a falling out with his team over financial irregularities, which is where Ruiz stepped into the picture. He would win and become the interm wba champ. After Jones-Tarver 1, the wba would ask Jones if he was going to defend his belt and he said no. So Ruiz was bumped back to the wba champ again.

Yes, all true. Now you're talking.

I dont know who the promoter was for Jones-Tarver I. I doubt if it was King, because I dont recall him being in the ring or his DKP sign anywhere during that fight.


King was the promoter for Tarver II, because Jones was playing hardball over the purse split. So it went to a purse bid, which King won

It was King.

After he won the belt he was notified by the wba that he had 180 days to make a mandatory defense - his mando was Vitali K

Also whats the point of him fighting washed up Holyfield then? Dude was 2-3-1 in his last 7 fights. With his most recent fight ending with a shut out loss to Byrd. Who was also calling out Jones

He wanted a big money fight? That's why? Duh? What does this have to do with Roy Jones' weight?

It failed to materalize because Jones wanted 82% of the purse and King wanted options for all of Evanders championship fights if he won. King couldnt do that with Vitali because he was Jones mando and Jones was legally obliged to make that defense. You cannot demand options on fighters for mandatory fights.

What does this have to do with Roy Jones' weight?

Says the guy who playing fast and lose with the facts?

"weights in pockets?"

[IMDAZED]

Slowing down because you are carrying extra weight doesnt mean you have permanently slipped. If you move back down that factor becomes moot. Compare Nunn vs Butler at lhw to the Nunn who moved back down and fought Scully at smw.

You said he was already slipping...as far back as in 2001. Right?

Jones most likely had been using roids for a while when he got busted. Dude juiced to fight a green contender off all people. Toney obviously didn't know what he was doing, which is why he got caught. How can you compare a long term roider with a guy who used them for one fight?

But the guy who got caught twice most likely wasn't, right? Yeah, he got caught twice...not once.

Does that sound to you like he knows what his doing? the guys that get caught are the guys who dont know what they are doing or the get unlucky like Jones and hall did.

No, it sounds like a guy who used steroids often.

What was the original date?

I want to say a month earlier but I'll get back to you on that. I was at the first Ruiz-Toney presser in MSG and interviewed both fighters. The date was originally scheduled for Vitali Klitschko to fight Rahman but Vitali got injured and was out of commission. So they moved up Toney-Ruiz to fill that date.

[Toney616]

He can demand options for any contract someone signs with one of his fighters. It's up to the fighter to agree. Who told you that a promoter can only ask for future options in a voluntary defense?

No, he cant. A champion is legally obliged to fight his mandos. If he doesn't do that he gets stripped (at least by the rules). As useless as the abc bodies are I cannot see how they are going to say to any fighter you have to sign with King before you can get your mando shot.

Off the top of my head
Bruno was Tyson's wbc mando during the late 80's he got his shot but never became a Don King fighter.

on the flip side Holyfield had to allow King options to get a voluntary shot at Tyson.

Fell free to provide proof seeing as you are the one claiming this

DiBella was his advisor, never his promoter.

I never said he was his promoter. I said it was Lou Dibella that got Hopkins into the King mw tournament.

Why do you think he stabbed his boy in the back? For Don King who he railed against for years? Think about it for a second.

Nope I don't need to.
The arrangement Dibella had with Hopkins was the for an advisory fee (from each fight) he would guide Hopkins career. The deal he signed with King was arranged that it was out of Kings cut that Dibella got his fee. After Hopkins won the tournament,the negotiations started for Hopkins to sign another long term contract. Dibella found out that King wasn't agreeing to pay the fee. So he asked Hopkins to help him out. Hopkins basically told him to get lost. The deal was a 5-6 fights. Which paid Hopkins a minimum of 1m per fight and King threw in a brand new Bentley as a signing bonus

Uhh..no. This is what Jones did: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/box...ones_lewis_ap/

A bout with top-ranked contender Vitali Klitschko has been ordered by the WBA to be Jones' next fight. But Jones is hoping to first fight Evander Holyfield, a far more lucrative bout.

From your link I believe. Are you trying to help me or yourself here?

Perhaps not fully understanding this, the WBA has informed Jones he must fight No. 1 contender Vitali Klitschko within 180 days from the night he won the title, which means he has 129 days to reach agreement with Klitschko's arrogant manager, Peter Kohl. This will be difficult to accomplish because Jones already has set his sights in another direction, and with good reason.

http://www.aussiebox.com.au/jones.html

Although initially mandated to defend his WBA crown within 180 days of winning it, Jones, whose deadline was Sept. 1, threatened legal action if the organization tried to strip him.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2003-09-14/sports/0309140073_1_david-tua-rahman-mandalay-bay-hotel

Obviously he had intentions on staying at heavyweight. BTW, the WBA belt wasn't just handed back to him when he did decide to return to 175. He had to fight Tarver for it.

Which is why he moved down after the deadline ended? And then threatened legal action if they tried to stripped him?

It was King.

I said I don't know who it was. What proof to you have that it was King?

He wanted a big money fight? That's why? Duh? What does this have to do with Roy Jones' weight?

I never said it had anything to do with Jones weight. You are the one who brought up the Holyfield fight.

I'm dis*****g your claim that Rahman was ever Jones mando.

What does this have to do with Roy Jones' weight?

He is due to make a mando defense against a live hw contender. Not a cherry picked plodding Ruiz. So he moved back down. There was nothing stopping him from fighting another hw all the big money fights for him were at hw, not lhw

"weights in pockets?"

Because as we all know its possible to put on 6 lbs of extra muscle in 24 hrs

Benn ducked Jones, because someone on Boxingscene said so?
Benn ducked Jones because of the Brannon talk which took place after Benn retired?

[Toney616]

You said he was already slipping...as far back as in 2001. Right?

yep

But the guy who got caught twice most likely wasn't, right? Yeah, he got caught twice...not once.

No, it sounds like a guy who used steroids often.

No, its sounds like an amateur. If he knew what he was doing he would of known the half life of the steroids he was using. Some stay in your system for 10 days, others for up to 6+ months.

Its also hard to tell if his reflexes have slipped after getting busted because his weight got out of control again. For the Ruiz fight he was less obese than usual.

I want to say a month earlier but I'll get back to you on that. I was at the first Ruiz-Toney presser in MSG and interviewed both fighters. The date was originally scheduled for Vitali Klitschko to fight Rahman but Vitali got injured and was out of commission. So they moved up Toney-Ruiz to fill that date.

Fair enough

[IMDAZED]

Slowing down because you are carrying extra weight doesnt mean you have permanently slipped. If you move back down that factor becomes moot. Compare Nunn vs Butler at lhw to the Nunn who moved back down and fought Scully at smw.

Didn't you say he was slipping after Harmon? Or did that stop?

Jones most likely had been using roids for a while when he got busted. Dude juiced to fight a green contender off all people. Toney obviously didn't know what he was doing, which is why he got caught. How can you compare a long term roider with a guy who used them for one fight?

How can you act as if you know how long they roided? Because one got caught more times he therefore used less? Alrighty.

Does that sound to you like he knows what his doing? the guys that get caught are the guys who dont know what they are doing or the get unlucky like Jones and hall did.

Who knows? Maybe if Jones had as many fights as Toney he may have got caught twice. And all others caught once.

What was the original date?

I'd like to say May 14th but I don't remember. I do remember the date being moved up and it stands out because it's the only time I ever remember something like that happening. In fact, Freddie Roach blamed the positive test on the fight moving up, saying Toney was using it for an injury and they thought it would be out of his system by then.

[IMDAZED]

No, he cant. A champion is legally obliged to fight his mandos. If he doesn't do that he gets stripped (at least by the rules). As useless as the abc bodies are I cannot see how they are going to say to any fighter you have to sign with King before you can get your mando shot.

And this somehow stops Roy from fighting at HW how, exactly?

Bruno was Tyson's wbc mando during the late 80's he got his shot but never became a Don King fighter.

on the flip side Holyfield had to allow King options to get a voluntary shot at Tyson.

Fell free to provide proof seeing as you are the one claiming this

Actually, you claimed a promoter can't get rights on a mandatory challenger. What you're not getting is that either way, it does not stop Jones from competing at HW.

I never said he was his promoter. I said it was Lou Dibella that got Hopkins into the King mw tournament.

The arrangement Dibella had with Hopkins was the for an advisory fee (from each fight) he would guide Hopkins career. The deal he signed with King was arranged that it was out of Kings cut that Dibella got his fee. After Hopkins won the tournament,the negotiations started for Hopkins to sign another long term contract. Dibella found out that King wasn't agreeing to pay the fee. So he asked Hopkins to help him out. Hopkins basically told him to get lost. The deal was a 5-6 fights. Which paid Hopkins a minimum of 1m per fight and King threw in a brand new Bentley as a signing bonus

Wait...did you say Bernard Hopkins had to sign a deal with King in order to get into the tourney and fight Felix Trinidad?

From your link I believe. Are you trying to help me or yourself here?

http://www.aussiebox.com.au/jones.html

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2003-09-14/sports/0309140073_1_david-tua-rahman-mandalay-bay-hotel

Which is why he moved down after the deadline ended? And then threatened legal action if they tried to stripped him?

In your rush to discuss the history of Vitali Klitschko's rise to a title fight, you seem to have forgotten your point. Do you have one? Because it started with whether or not the weight loss affected Roy. And to answer your question, yeah, he moved down after the negotiation with Holyfield failed as you pointed out in the part you pulled out. Your point again?

I said I don't know who it was. What proof to you have that it was King?

https://secure.pqarchiver.com/boston/access/350150741.html?FMT=FT&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jun+22%2C+2003&author=RON+BORGES&pub=Boston+Globe&desc=JONES+MUST+WEIGH+OPTIONS+HIS+NEXT+BIG+CHALLENGE+REQUIRES+HEAVY+THINKING

Muhammad is well aware that HBO finds the idea of a Jones-Lewis fight fascinating and believes it could break all pay-per-view records in part because it would be perceived as a physical mismatch. Muhammad has said the negotiations for a Holyfield fight have been slowed by the demands of promoter Don King, even though King has options on the next several Jones fights and thus would once again make money regardless of whom Jones fights.

I never said it had anything to do with Jones weight. You are the one who brought up the Holyfield fight.
I'm dis*****g your claim that Rahman was ever Jones mando.

Like I said, you've gone so deep you've forgotten why you were debating. i brought up Holyfield to point out that Jones was looking for a fight there and didn't immediately move down to 175. Then you countered by explaining that he could easily drop x amount of pounds in x amount of time. Then brought up weights in pockets, etc. Now we're here. Get it?

He is due to make a mando defense against a live hw contender. Not a cherry picked plodding Ruiz. So he moved back down. There was nothing stopping him from fighting another hw all the big money fights for him were at hw, not lhw

The big money fights at HW were Tyson, Lewis and Holyfield. He tried for Holyfield and it didn't pan out. He moved back down and fought Tarver who, by the way, you were complaining he didn't fight before he moved up.

Because as we all know its possible to put on 6 lbs of extra muscle in 24 hrs

Weights in pockets? Really?

Benn ducked Jones, because someone on Boxingscene said so?
Benn ducked Jones because of the Brannon talk which took place after Benn retired?

If you can find a quote where I said Benn ducked Jones than this would make sense. I'm not. I'm arguing that Jones didn't duck Benn.

[Toney616]

Collins, Benn, Eubank, McClellan, Calzaghe, Michalzweski, Ricchigiani and Nunn.

McClellan dream fight was a fight with Jones. As far as he was concerned he should of went to the Olympics instead of Jones and he was determined to fight him in the pros

Some history

'Well, I don' worry about that. It was just before the Olympics. I was already set for a spot on the team and the selection committee were determined that the other place was gonna go to Ray McElroy. So in the National Golden Gloves I fought Gerald in the semis and they gave him a 3-2 decision. Then they GIFTED the decision to McElroy in the final. That's amateur politics.

The Dark Trade page 180

There are not two ways of doing things, just Manny's. Gerald wanted to go with Sugar Ray Leonard in the first instance, but when he saw Leonard leaning towards Roy Jones Jr and when Jones went to Seoul instead of him, Gerald got mad

war, baby p39

In November, McClellan came to London for the first time and put a shadow of the once- awesome John Mugabi away in a round to win the World Boxing Organizations version of the middleweight championship. He impressed his London audience with the ruthlessness of his finishing, even if the title was more cardboard than Gold and the opponent was shot.

MClellan looked his usual awesome self in knocking Mugabi down three times and the title was OK, but not enough. He hungered for the genuine big time. The WBO meant nothing to him. Where the big fights, he wanted to know, the big money?

Why wasn't he fighting Jones?

war, baby p41

Roy Jones, meanwhile, was pulling away from Gerald. He'd come home from Seoul a martyr, the victim of outrageous judging, and signed a big contract to turn professional. Where Gerald was quiet, sometimes sullen, Jones had a mouthy edge - but TV liked him, and even used him in ads to promote their boxing program mes. He was being groomed while Gerald was being ignored.

war, baby p42

But Gerald wasn't that kinda guy; he didn't want no mother****er steal from him. You know, he wanted to make all the money. He wanted to be like Sugar Ray Leonard and Muhammad Ali was. Later on in boxing, Ray Leonard controlled his own career. ''I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna get this much and **** all the rest of you mother****ers.' Huh? Right. Ali did the same thing, but I say,@Gerald, you can't have it like that, you need to pay some kinda dues'

Gerald couldn't wait. He was chasing Jones. That would make his career. To get to Jones he'd have to go through Benn first. But he didn't think that would be a problem. For Gerald, nothing was a problem

war, baby p48

McClellan, meanwhile, was eager for a challenge. He told king, 'I'm ready now for Julian Jackson, anyone out there - Roy Jones, all the big-name guys.'

Which brings us on to Jackson-McClellan II.

war, baby p53

Gerald would beat Jackson II on 1994-05-07
Jones would beat Tate on 1994-05-27

After the Tate fight Jones was asked about McClellan. Check out his facial expression
[IMG]http://i987.***********.com/albums/ae354/ironmike-/threads/vlcsnap-2011-07-10-19h23m53s27.png[/IMG]

It should also be pointed out that Toney had been calling Jones out for almost 8 months by this time and Jones had ignored him
source: First round of the Toney-Williams fight

They could of fought then seeing as how they were free of any mandatory obligations, but Jones decided to move up instead. Personally I think a fight with McClellan is a much more dangerous fight than a fight with Toney

Going into the Toney fight Merchant would say that Jones avoided all of the top mw fighters
source: pre-fight talks for Toney-Jones

As I pointed out before Jones missed every big puncher in every division he fought in. Jones and his fans claim that Jones was prepared to fight the winner of McClellan-Benn. Which brings us up to the last part of my Benn-Jones posts

[Toney616]

Collins, Benn, Eubank, McClellan, Calzaghe, Michalzweski, Ricchigiani and Nunn.

The Jones-Benn Negotiations part 3

Reason 1:

Through out 95-95 Jones claimed the reason the fight couldn't happen was because King was demanding options

"King demands options on Roy if he should beat Nigel," explains Greg. "We will never agree to that.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_19960114/ai_n9700832/pg_2/?tag=content;col1

Warren disputes this claiming that neither him Benn or King have heard anything from Jones

The American allegations anger Warren. "I haven't received a single call from Jones or his people," he stresses. "How can they say what Nigel, Don or myself want?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_19960114/ai_n9700832/pg_2/?tag=content;col1

A point I would like to make is that Jones was prepared to fight Tito (2001) knowing full well he would of had to give King options. Also he gave King options to fight Ruiz and later on Tito.
So where the options the real problem?

Reason 2:

After the McClellan fight Benn gave King another options co-promote his next three fights. So I don't know what Jones is talking about here

Q: "Did you have plans to fight McClellan before he got hurt?"
Jones: "Yeah, in fact, I was gonna fight the winner of that fight. But when Benn won, Don didn't want to do that because Don doesn't totally have Benn. Him and Frankie Warren had Benn together, so Don King didn't want to make that fight.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/box996x.htm

Reason 3:

8:13 Comment Comment From *****

Hi Roy, hows it going ? There was a lot of talk over here years back about you fighting Nigel Benn how come it never happened ?
8:14 Roy Jones Jr.

I tried to make that fight, but he was going through a divorce at the time...he never called me back.

http://www.8countnews.com/news/125/ARTICLE/2884/2010-09-06.html

Benn as I showed before didn't get divorced until mid 96, so this is a down right lie. The fact that Jones is constantly changing his story hurts his credibility

KO artists

Jones 'missed' every top puncher in every division he fought in
mw: Jackson, McClellan
smw: Benn, Liles, Cordoba
lhw: Darius
hw: Tua, Vitali, Lennox

HBO

'Did you see his last fight?' I wondered.
'What fight?' Toney snorted. 'It was a joke!'

The week after Oscar De La Hoya joined him at the very top of boxing's pound for pound rating, Roy Jones fought an unheralded Canadian called Eric Lucas. It was one of boxing's most brazen mismatches and yet Jones only stopped Lucas at the end of the eleventh round. The reasons were complicated. Jones made much of the fact that, by turning out for the Jackonville Barracudas on the afternoon of the fight, he had become the first athlete to play professional basketball and defend a world boxing title in the course of the same day. But, far from being exhausted by his fourteen minutes on court, Jones looked as if he was more intent on carrying Lucas through as many round of the twelve rounds as possible. He produced flashy volleys of punches but barely sought to knock out his opponent. It was a strategy he had used often during his most recent fights. Jones's intention seemed to be one of overwhelming his opponent with zip and dazzle rather than the sheer concussive force he possessed in both fists.

He confirmed that the violence of the ring had wearied him. 'The Gabriel Ruelas and Jimmy Garcia fight ruined me,' he said. 'I don't want to end up brain dead. I don't want to get hit.'

Against Eric Lucas he was in no such danger; but Jones tried to defend his choice of opponent. 'I'm not trying to denigrate Lucas,' he protested but at least this way, with me playing basketball a few hours before, he has a better chance. Some guys lose the urge when they get to the top. Reaching the top in basketball is a challenge I need.'

Jones also needed a challenge in the ring to sustain his genius and interest in boxing. There were clear signs that his television paymasters, HBO, considered a rematch with the revamped Toney as one of the few options left open to Jones. Whereas De La Hoya had a legion of ambitious young fighters lined up to challenge him on HBO, the station would not allow Jones to cruise much longer.
'Exactly!' Toney said. 'He's got this big fat deal with HBO and I know how unhappy they are with him. He just won't fight anyone anymore. He's lost the taste for boxing. He's happier playing in some two-bit basketball game. But he aint gonna be linin up against Michael Jordan. It's like my mom said, Roy Jones's got as much chance of making it to the NBA as she has of turning into Marilyn Monroe.

The Dark Trade page 357

Seth Abraham reiterates Toney's point:

Things didn't always go smoothly. "The [longterm] Roy Jones contract was a mistake," Abraham acknowledges. "I misread Roy. I thought that pride and his wanting to go down in history as one of the greatest fighters of the modern era would lead him to want more competitive fights; and obviously, he was satisfied with lesser opponents."

http://www.secondsout.com/columns/thomas-hauser/hbo-boxing-the-challenge

And finally:

"Normal Business Resumed" read the headlines. Well, I'm afraid it's true. Roy is back to his old self. The same old self that kept us guessing as to whether he could beat Nigel Benn when both were recognized as the super middleweight division's top guns. The same old self that really didn't want to face Benn's conqueror Steve Collins but instead of saying so blamed the fact that he wasn't getting his ridiculous purse demand of $5m. for the fight. The same old self that most recently - and most disturbingly - relinquished his WBC light heavyweight belt in order to avoid facing Michael Nunn. Again the dust was blown off an old excuse from the Roy archives: This time he was upset that HBO were apparently planning not to screen the fight. Yup, normal business is resumed.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/box12-97.htm

In the aftermath of the bout, Benn even seemed dangerous enough to remind the great Roy Jones Jr. why it would be a good idea to avoid him.

http://www.ea$tsideboxing.com/news.php?p=1263&more=1
change $ to s

Many boxing fans would also have liked to see Benn take on Roy Jones Jnr - for many the sport's best active pound-for-pound fighter.

A young Jones v Benn in his prime would have caused a stir, and the British boxer, who never dodged anybody, was up for it.

But Benn's 1995 knockout of Gerald McClellan, which left the American fighting for his life, was a factor in why Jones never took the bait.

His friendship with McClellan saw the potential contest receive unsavoury hype as a revenge mission.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/1231306.stm

[Toney616]

Collins, Benn, Eubank, McClellan, Calzaghe, Michalzweski, Ricchigiani and Nunn.

Eubank called out Roy around 1996

http://www.ea$tsideboxing.com/news.php?p=4223&more=1
change $ to s

Steve Bunce elaborates on it a bit more

go to 9:25

Jones's response:

Before Eubank met Collins, there was speculation about multi-million pound fights against his former rival, Nigel Benn, and the current sensation of American boxing, Roy Jones, but since losing to Collins both those lucrative avenues dried up.
"Eubank is no good to me because he has now lost twice," said Jones recently.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/boxing-eubank-announces-retirement-as-pressure-builds-up-1578117.html