1 Billion:I think Joe Louis would have beaten Muhammad Ali

[StarshipTrooper]

As mentioned earlier Patterson had a bad back, Ali wasnt that difficult to hit if you had fast hands and the style to neutralise his speed like Norton and Frazier, what im saying is that no one Ali faced in his prime was able to properly fight Ali the way that was needed. Ali was then able o get away with his technical flaws, however aganist Louis those technical flaws would be his downfall. Speed and reflexes are not going to be good enough to avoid someone with the handspeed of Louis he needs something more.

If no one was "able" to do it as you say, how can you logically infer that ANYONE would be able to do it? There's no evidence for it. No one was able to consistantly land on a prime Roy Jones either but that doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that "no one was doing it right".

And btw, Norton's style was based on taking away the jab not taking away speed. Ali had no problems throughout his career switching to lead rights when he had difficulty landing the jab.

Louis was far more dangerous than either Norton or Frazier, he had the ability to carry ut to prefection the strategies they used to trouble Ali such as: body punching, cutting off the ring, blocking/slipping the jab etc excpet he had bigger weapons than these men did.

Once again your using examples of a past-prime Ali who didn't have the speed and reflexes anymore. Not a valid comparison. If it where then it would be just as valid to use the Walcott example as a blueprint for beating Louis (which it's not).

Poet

[Greatest1942]

For starters, I can't stand Ali. I think he was a 24 karot azzhole. Secondly, my all-time favorite fighter happens to be Joe Louis. I don't play favorites when I analyze.....if I did we wouldn't be having this conversation.




This just validates the point I made about there not being any "right" or "wrong" in the ring but rather whether it works or not.




Like I said in my previous post even the best defensive fighters get landed on multiple times in every round of every fight. The next shutout I see pitched in boxing will be the first (obviously exempting one punch and done 1st round KOs like Thunder Vs. Grimsley). The Ali fans are engaing in hyperbole when they say untouchable. It would be much more accurate to say Ali was the most difficult to hit of all the great Heavies as "untouchable" has yet to be achieved by any fighter.

I haven't seen any one saying Chuvalo missed "all the time" (see above).....but he did miss far more than landed and that's ultimately the definition of good defense.




And Ali was a better and more lethal boxer than Billy Conn.....these comparisons work both ways.




Frazier threw 90% left hooks so what else was he going to hit Ali with (and a past-prime Ali at that)? The Cooper example, as I pointed out, had Ali being caught coming off the ropes with his feet tangled up: ANY hard punch landed at that point would have put him down.

Like I said, if you watch Ali's fights he doesn't get hit with left hooks any more than he gets hit with rights. If he had any sort of "special vulnerability" to them than all his opponents would have been throwing them at him all night long and bouncing off the canvas like a basketball.




You won't see Ali "running".....this is Ali not Mayweather here. Watch the Liston I: The only time you see Ali running is in the 5th when he's blind.....otherwise he's using his speed to attack from all angles and pull out before the reciept.

Poet

I am not saying that Chuvalo did not miss. He did miss against Ali but he landed enough to make Ali pass blood after the fight. U R missing the point. Ali was never fast enough to stay away from Louis all the time, and when Louis did get to Ali he would be far more dangerous. ALso Chuvalo was not a accurate puncher, not a hard puncher niether a lethal puncher. Chuvalo missed against A LOT OF FIGHTERS WHO WERE NOT ALI. I would say Louis could do more damage than Chuvalo did...and yes he wont miss that much..atleast not the guy who is rings #1 puncher...

The Cooper example is a valid one. If Ali got knocked down due to tangled feet why did he stay down for that long...Surely a slip wont take u that long to stay long...Ur confusing with Wepner here Poet..The Cooper punch was a real hard one...HE did not have any special vulnerability but he got hit by it more often.. and Yes I saw most of his fights. Please see the Cooper fight again.

Conn was a light weight who was a very correct boxer. Aside from their speed they have not much in common. Conn was greater boxer than Doug Jones also.

Frazier did throw left hooks all night long and Ali never quite made him bounce of the canvas. Ali was easy to hit to the body...he was tagged to the body by multiple guys...and when you take it to the body from a fast accurate puncher your speed slows down...No wonder Ali felt like dying after Manilla, Frazier did catch him there.

Ali is not Mayweather. He was great against Liston no doubt...I only wanted to state that even if Ali did run...being faster and all that...in a boxing ring Louis will always get to him , but might be in a field he wont...

AND YES FLOYD HAD A BAD BACK, AND GIVING HIM AS AN EXAMPLE DOESNT HELP YOUR ARGUEMENT.

ALi was great, but Louis just too complete for him IMO.

[StarshipTrooper]

I am not saying that Chuvalo did not miss. He did miss against Ali but he landed enough to make Ali pass blood after the fight. U R missing the point. Ali was never fast enough to stay away from Louis all the time, and when Louis did get to Ali he would be far more dangerous. ALso Chuvalo was not a accurate puncher, not a hard puncher niether a lethal puncher. Chuvalo missed against A LOT OF FIGHTERS WHO WERE NOT ALI. I would say Louis could do more damage than Chuvalo did...and yes he wont miss that much..atleast not the guy who is rings #1 puncher...

The Cooper example is a valid one. If Ali got knocked down due to tangled feet why did he stay down for that long...Surely a slip wont take u that long to stay long...Ur confusing with Wepner here Poet..The Cooper punch was a real hard one...HE did not have any special vulnerability but he got hit by it more often.. and Yes I saw most of his fights. Please see the Cooper fight again.

Conn was a light weight who was a very correct boxer. Aside from their speed they have not much in common. Conn was greater boxer than Doug Jones also.

Frazier did throw left hooks all night long and Ali never quite made him bounce of the canvas. Ali was easy to hit to the body...he was tagged to the body by multiple guys...and when you take it to the body from a fast accurate puncher your speed slows down...No wonder Ali felt like dying after Manilla, Frazier did catch him there.

Ali is not Mayweather. He was great against Liston no doubt...I only wanted to state that even if Ali did run...being faster and all that...in a boxing ring Louis will always get to him , but might be in a field he wont...

AND YES FLOYD HAD A BAD BACK, AND GIVING HIM AS AN EXAMPLE DOESNT HELP YOUR ARGUEMENT.

ALi was great, but Louis just too complete for him IMO.

I'm not talking about Ali going down from a slip. The point is, when you're bouncing off the ropes with your feet tangled up you're wide open for a punch.....any punch not just a left hook. Put some power behind it and you're likely to get dropped and hurt. In anycase, that flaw in Ali's footwork was fixed by the time he came into his prime from the Liston fight through 1967. Much the same way that Louis' flaw of dropping his left after the jab was fixed after the first Schmeling fight.

And by the way, put Ali in place of Conn and Louis has just as much difficulty tagging him and, here's the big difference, Ali was capable of seriously hurting Louis with his punches in a way Conn was not. Ali>>>>>>>>>>Conn offensively.....not even remotely close.

Poet

[them_apples]

Ali would Merk Louis. Sorry to say.

In Ali's prime he had unreal mobility.

Louis is nothing like Frazier. You could argue maybe a tiny bit more power, but some might argue that Frazier hit harder. Regardless, Joe is FLATFOOTED and has no head movement. Frazier had continuous head movement and was quite fast at closing the distance on his oponents.

This is why Joe had trouble with Walcott and Conn, he only likes opponent's that stand right in front of him. Ali would have danced circles around him and caught him with straight rights over the top all night long, dropping him numerous times I imagine.

[DarkTerror88]

In a perfect world it would go 5-5 in a 10 fight series. especially because we would get to see them fight 10 times! Honestly though i don't know. My brain says Ali, but my gut says Louis. >.<

[kendom]

If no one was "able" to do it as you say, how can you logically infer that ANYONE would be able to do it? There's no evidence for it. No one was able to consistantly land on a prime Roy Jones either but that doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that "no one was doing it right".

And btw, Norton's style was based on taking away the jab not taking away speed. Ali had no problems throughout his career switching to lead rights when he had difficulty landing the jab.

By saying that no one was able to do it, I meant that the fighters Ali faced in his prime were not as skillful or had the style necessary to do it. Louis could do it, by blocking his jab and countering it, by body punching, and by taking away Alis jab he does neutralise Alis speed. And lead right wouldnt help him agamist Louis who was ammaster of blocking and countering.


O. Not a valid comparison. If it where then it would be just as valid to use thence again your using examples of a past-prime Ali who didn't have the speed and reflexes anymore Walcott example as a blueprint for beating Louis (which it's not).

Poet

Regardless of whether Ali was in prime or past prime he would still have had problems with Norton, just as in his prime Louis would still have had problems with Walcott, and Walcott isnt a good blue pprint for how a fight with Ali and Louis would go as Walcott was a fundamentally correct boxer-which Ali wasnt, he didnt make the same mistakes in the ring.

[kendom]

Ali would Merk Louis. Sorry to say.

In Ali's prime he had unreal mobility.

Louis is nothing like Frazier. You could argue maybe a tiny bit more power, but some might argue that Frazier hit harder. Regardless, Joe is FLATFOOTED and has no head movement. Frazier had continuous head movement and was quite fast at closing the distance on his oponents.

This is why Joe had trouble with Walcott and Conn, he only likes opponent's that stand right in front of him. Ali would have danced circles around him and caught him with straight rights over the top all night long, dropping him numerous times I imagine.

Louis was a good stalker like Frazier, he didnt put anywhere near as much pressure but that wasnt his style, and most boxing historians would agree that Louis hit far harder than Frazier, and Louis did use head movement, you're repeating the same old rhetoric here "he would have danced circles around him" i've said already that Walcott and Conn were different from Ali as they were fundamentally correct boxers, how are you going to "dance all night" against someone whose handspeed is as fast as Louis when you're only mode of defense is leaning your head back as far as you can. If Louis feinted ( which Louis was a master at doing) then he would have Ali in serious trouble. Louis would block Alis jab and counter and break apart his rythmn, stalk him and pound the body.

[StarshipTrooper]

Ali would Merk Louis. Sorry to say.

In Ali's prime he had unreal mobility.

Louis is nothing like Frazier. You could argue maybe a tiny bit more power, but some might argue that Frazier hit harder. Regardless, Joe is FLATFOOTED and has no head movement. Frazier had continuous head movement and was quite fast at closing the distance on his oponents.

This is why Joe had trouble with Walcott and Conn, he only likes opponent's that stand right in front of him. Ali would have danced circles around him and caught him with straight rights over the top all night long, dropping him numerous times I imagine.

I think it's a much closer matchup that. I know you don't rate Louis (or any pre-1960 fighter for that matter.....fair enough but would be a good subject for a separate thread.) which I take into account.

I see it as more along the lines of a close decision for Ali in a one-off fight (say, 8-6-1 in rounds over 15) or a 5-4-1 split in favor of Ali if the fought 10 times.

Poet

[Greatest1942]

I am not saying that Chuvalo did not miss. He did miss against Ali but he landed enough to make Ali pass blood after the fight. U R missing the point. Ali was never fast enough to stay away from Louis all the time, and when Louis did get to Ali he would be far more dangerous. ALso Chuvalo was not a accurate puncher, not a hard puncher niether a lethal puncher. Chuvalo missed against A LOT OF FIGHTERS WHO WERE NOT ALI. I would say Louis could do more damage than Chuvalo did...and yes he wont miss that much..atleast not the guy who is rings #1 puncher...

The Cooper example is a valid one. If Ali got knocked down due to tangled feet why did he stay down for that long...Surely a slip wont take u that long to stay long...Ur confusing with Wepner here Poet..The Cooper punch was a real hard one...HE did not have any special vulnerability but he got hit by it more often.. and Yes I saw most of his fights. Please see the Cooper fight again.

Conn was a light weight who was a very correct boxer. Aside from their speed they have not much in common. Conn was greater boxer than Doug Jones also.

Frazier did throw left hooks all night long and Ali never quite made him bounce of the canvas. Ali was easy to hit to the body...he was tagged to the body by multiple guys...and when you take it to the body from a fast accurate puncher your speed slows down...No wonder Ali felt like dying after Manilla, Frazier did catch him there.

Ali is not Mayweather. He was great against Liston no doubt...I only wanted to state that even if Ali did run...being faster and all that...in a boxing ring Louis will always get to him , but might be in a field he wont...

AND YES FLOYD HAD A BAD BACK, AND GIVING HIM AS AN EXAMPLE DOESNT HELP YOUR ARGUEMENT.

ALi was great, but Louis just too complete for him IMO.

And I have heard many Ali fans say that he could avoid the right easily...but ur saying he got hit by rights too...if he does get hit by the Joe Louis right often he might be in serious danger.

[Greatest1942]

Ali would Merk Louis. Sorry to say.

In Ali's prime he had unreal mobility.

Louis is nothing like Frazier. You could argue maybe a tiny bit more power, but some might argue that Frazier hit harder. Regardless, Joe is FLATFOOTED and has no head movement. Frazier had continuous head movement and was quite fast at closing the distance on his oponents.

This is why Joe had trouble with Walcott and Conn, he only likes opponent's that stand right in front of him. Ali would have danced circles around him and caught him with straight rights over the top all night long, dropping him numerous times I imagine.

Sorry to break ur bubble...Walcott was the last fight of Louis..he retired after that..he weighed a carrer high at that point ..not his best shape..he kncoked him out still...at the same stage of their carrer Ali got beat by Leon Spinks...

So only Walcott and Conn were movers right that Louis faced...I dont need to comment on anything else...its no wonder good posters sometimes develop amnesia...