1 Billion:I think Joe Louis would have beaten Muhammad Ali

[SBleeder]

This is a repost from a thread I made a while back. Not saying I agree with it but I think it's pertinent food for thought for this thread

How I Would Have Clobbered Clay Part 1

By Joe Louis

Originally Printed In The February 1967 Issue Of The Ring Magazine
Reprinted In The February 1991 Issue Of The Ring Magazine


Cassius Clay's got lots of ability, but he's not The Greatest. He's a guy with a million dollars worth of confidence and a dime's worth of courage.

The bolded statement renders the rest of the article void. Ali fought and beat some of the most feared and dangerous heavyweights of all time.

[StarshipTrooper]

The bolded statement renders the rest of the article void. Ali fought and beat some of the most feared and dangerous heavyweights of all time.

Check the date on when it was written though: 1967 at which time Ali had only faced Liston out of his truly fearsome opponents.

Poet

[kendom]

True, but he did struggle with Conn in the first fight. The reason i choose Walcott is because of his foot work and the fact that Louis wasn't that effective at attacking on the move (coming forward), but to fair that wasn't his absolute prime. Conn caused him even more problems on the other hand, and i really can't pick out anything he did better than Ali or any advantage he would have in the Louis match up. The thread starter says that Ali would be a much bigger target than Conn was, when Ali pre exile was the hardest heavyweight ever to hit cleanly. Same goes for him saying ''Ali not being able to block jabs''. Ali in his prime didn't need to block anything, his thing to was avoid the shot completely with his reflexes and counter. Liston's reach was unreal and he had a very effective jab, and Ali took it away from him.

Conn was a better techical boxer than Ali, Ali made a lot of mistakes in the ring but his speed let him get away with it, Louis wouldnt have the same problems with Ali because even though Ali was faster he was prone to left hooks and good jabbers, and the statement "Ali in his prime was the hardest heavyweight to hit cleanly" is simply false, Henry Cooper in their second fight was tagging him and even a brawler like Chuvalo was able to catch Ali flush on the chin, Louis's jab was much faster than Listons and Louis was a master at blocking jabs and countering which would have destoyed Alis rythmn like Norton did, except Louis was a more proficient and dangerous puncher than Norton

[StarshipTrooper]

Conn was a better techical boxer than Ali, Ali made a lot of mistakes in the ring but his speed let him get away with it, Louis wouldnt have the same problems with Ali because even though Ali was faster he was prone to left hooks and good jabbers, and the statement "Ali in his prime was the hardest heavyweight to hit cleanly" is simply false, Henry Cooper in their second fight was tagging him and even a brawler like Chuvalo was able to catch Ali flush on the chin, Louis's jab was much faster than Listons and Louis was a master at blocking jabs and countering which would have destoyed Alis rythmn like Norton did, except Louis was a more proficient and dangerous puncher than Norton

For starters even the best defensive fighters are going to get hit in every fight. The phrase was "difficult to hit" not impossible to hit. Even Fraud Gayweather who runs like a b1tch and is generally considered to be the best defensive fighter of today gets hit multiple times in every round of every fight. So did Roy Jones. Nobody pitches a shutout in a fight no matter how good they are defensively.

If you actually WATCH the Cooper and Chuvalo fights (preferably without a rooting interest) you'll see that both of them miss far more than they land. They idea that Ali was somehow particularly "succeptable" to left hooks is a myth that popped up after he had a couple of flash knockdowns from them. The truth is he didn't get tagged with left hooks any more frequently then he did with rights. Sonny Liston had a better left hook than Cooper did and even he couldn't tag Ali with it until Ali lost his sight in the 5th. And who the hell was ever able to land jabs consistantly on a prime Ali? I've seen ALL of Ali's fights from his championship years and NO ONE was able to land a jab consistantly on him in his prime.....not even Sonny Liston who is considered to have the best jab in the history of the Heavyweight division.

Poet

[kendom]

For starters even the best defensive fighters are going to get hit in every fight. The phrase was "difficult to hit" not impossible to hit. Even Fraud Gayweather who runs like a b1tch and is generally considered to be the best defensive fighter of today gets hit multiple times in every round of every fight. So did Roy Jones. Nobody pitches a shutout in a fight no matter how good they are defensively.

If you actually WATCH the Cooper and Chuvalo fights (preferably without a rooting interest) you'll see that both of them miss far more than they land. They idea that Ali was somehow particularly "succeptable" to left hooks is a myth that popped up after he had a couple of flash knockdowns from them. The truth is he didn't get tagged with left hooks any more frequently then he did with rights. Sonny Liston had a better left hook than Cooper did and even he couldn't tag Ali with it until Ali lost his sight in the 5th. And who the hell was ever able to land jabs consistantly on a prime Ali? I've seen ALL of Ali's fights from his championship years and NO ONE was able to land a jab consistantly on him in his prime.....not even Sonny Liston who is considered to have the best jab in the history of the Heavyweight division.

Poet

Ali was suscpetible to quick-handed boxers with good left hands, Liston wasnt very well known for is handspeed. Doug Jones gave him problems in his prime and Ken Norton did after his prime, however regardless of whether or not he was in his prime Norton would still have given him plenty of problems with his style, my issue here is that Ali wasnt a great defensive fighter he relied too much on his speed, however when you're making fundamental mistakes like Ali did, such as leaning away from a jab (thereby making him susceptible to a good feinter which Louis was), throwing uppercuts from outside making him open to a left hook, dropping his right hand after throwing it thereby making him susceptible to a left hook, then those can be exploited by someone with explosive power annd handspeed like Louis, alis tactics of leaning away from punches is suicidal ganist someone with the handspeed of Louis. And fighter who gave Ali trouble in the ring had good left hooks: Doug Jones, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Henry Cooper. Their handspeed were greater than Listons which is why they were able to trouble him more.

[StarshipTrooper]

Ali was suscpetible to quick-handed boxers with good left hands, Liston wasnt very well known for is handspeed. Doug Jones gave him problems in his prime and Ken Norton did after his prime, however regardless of whether or not he was in his prime Norton would still have given him plenty of problems with his style, my issue here is that Ali wasnt a great defensive fighter he relied too much on his speed, however when you're making fundamental mistakes like Ali did, such as leaning away from a jab (thereby making him susceptible to a good feinter which Louis was), throwing uppercuts from outside making him open to a left hook, dropping his right hand after throwing it thereby making him susceptible to a left hook, then those can be exploited by someone with explosive power annd handspeed like Louis, alis tactics of leaning away from punches is suicidal ganist someone with the handspeed of Louis. And fighter who gave Ali trouble in the ring had good left hooks: Doug Jones, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Henry Cooper. Their handspeed were greater than Listons which is why they were able to trouble him more.

Ahem. Floyd Patterson ring a bell? He had faster hands then all of them and a better left hook than any of them save Frazier. He could do NOTHING against Ali.....absolutely NOTHING.

How much trouble did Jones give Ali in reality? I've watched and scored that fight many times and I'll be damned if I could give him more than three rounds. Being a spoiler and making an opponent look bad isn't the same as winning the fight. Henry Cooper? Aside from a knockdown he got when Ali had his feet tangled up coming off the ropes he took a one-sided beatdown.....in both fights. You brought up Chuvalo in a previous post. At what point in either fight was Ali in any danger of losing? Chuvalo got slaughtered both times and it was only his incredible capacity for sponging punishment that kept him upright. Prime is very significant as far as Norton goes: Norton might make a prime Ali look bad at times.....and still lose a lopsided decision. Making your opponent look bad is NOT the same as winning.

Speed is defense. Reflexes are defense. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to do anything in the ring: The only thing that matters is if what you do WORKS or not. That's the bottom-line. Ali was extremely difficult to hit (hence he had a great defense) precisely because of his speed and reflexes. You may not like HOW he achieved his great defense but he wasn't asking you.....the only thing that mattered was that it worked. Boxing is a bottom-line sport and that's the bottom-line: It worked.

Poet

[TBear]

As far as Louis goes, any true assessment based on the Conn and Walcott performances should be disallowed. Walcott was at the tail end of his career and that means as much as Ali's loss to Neon Leon.
As for the first Conn fight it could very well have been one of those nights, if any champion makes more than ten defenses we should know at least one of those challengers is going to give a better account of himself than he is normally capable of.
Louis made a career of cutting off the ring and catching up to fighters, many of them able boxers and movers. One bad night and suddenly you have a weakness and are beatable. Don't you think many before and after that night others tried this and failed? Either way in the end Joe knocked out both and that should be the bottom line.

I'm not debating who might win this matchup, just dissecting the reasoning here. No offense but it just doesn't stand up straight for me.

[Greatest1942]

Ahem. Floyd Patterson ring a bell? He had faster hands then all of them and a better left hook than any of them save Frazier. He could do NOTHING against Ali.....absolutely NOTHING.

How much trouble did Jones give Ali in reality? I've watched and scored that fight many times and I'll be damned if I could give him more than three rounds. Being a spoiler and making an opponent look bad isn't the same as winning the fight. Henry Cooper? Aside from a knockdown he got when Ali had his feet tangled up coming off the ropes he took a one-sided beatdown.....in both fights. You brought up Chuvalo in a previous post. At what point in either fight was Ali in any danger of losing? Chuvalo got slaughtered both times and it was only his incredible capacity for sponging punishment that kept him upright. Prime is very significant as far as Norton goes: Norton might make a prime Ali look bad at times.....and still lose a lopsided decision. Making your opponent look bad is NOT the same as winning.

Speed is defense. Reflexes are defense. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to do anything in the ring: The only thing that matters is if what you do WORKS or not. That's the bottom-line. Ali was extremely difficult to hit (hence he had a great defense) precisely because of his speed and reflexes. You may not like HOW he achieved his great defense but he wasn't asking you.....the only thing that mattered was that it worked. Boxing is a bottom-line sport and that's the bottom-line: It worked.

Poet

Poet, Floyd had a bad back. It is evident as the fight goes on that he is struggling..if you really think it is 100% fit Floyd...you are biased for Ali I can say that too...He was struggling after the 1st round...Second time...he was way too old.

Speed is a form of defense it isnt the only one. Then an Olympic sprinter could be the best boxer for speed and light power. Head movement , Parrying are also forms of defense that could be used in boxing.

Chuvalo was a medicore boxer. He had a great chin. Point is he got to Ali. He landed a lot for a slow plodding fighter. No one i saying it was a close fight. It was not. But point is many Ali fans say he was untouchable he was so swift. Louis would not get to him . well Chuvalo did and land may times. Ali I think passed blood after the fight. It was not from Chuvalo missing all the time I can assure you. If Chuvalo can get to Ali then I find it hard to believe that a top 10 ATG great wont get to Ali and not have him in some trouble.
Joe was a better more lethal boxer than Chuvalo. He would land much more simply because of his accuracy and hand speed. I don't think ALi can simply shake of those punches...

You say Ali was not vulnerable to the left hook. Well that single punch floored him the most times...WHat we should believe..Ask Cooper or Frazier...
Fact is although some state that Ali is too fast..it doesnot hold up...May be in a field where there are no boundaries...In a boxing ring Joe Louis got to everyone even Walcoot and Conn...see Louis Conn 2 guys...you will see Conn run...but Louis caught up to him again. So I give a 3 fight series 2-1 to Louis...To each his own I guess

[kendom]

Ahem. Floyd Patterson ring a bell? He had faster hands then all of them and a better left hook than any of them save Frazier. He could do NOTHING against Ali.....absolutely NOTHING.

How much trouble did Jones give Ali in reality? I've watched and scored that fight many times and I'll be damned if I could give him more than three rounds. Being a spoiler and making an opponent look bad isn't the same as winning the fight. Henry Cooper? Aside from a knockdown he got when Ali had his feet tangled up coming off the ropes he took a one-sided beatdown.....in both fights. You brought up Chuvalo in a previous post. At what point in either fight was Ali in any danger of losing? Chuvalo got slaughtered both times and it was only his incredible capacity for sponging punishment that kept him upright. Prime is very significant as far as Norton goes: Norton might make a prime Ali look bad at times.....and still lose a lopsided decision. Making your opponent look bad is NOT the same as winning.

Speed is defense. Reflexes are defense. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to do anything in the ring: The only thing that matters is if what you do WORKS or not. That's the bottom-line. Ali was extremely difficult to hit (hence he had a great defense) precisely because of his speed and reflexes. You may not like HOW he achieved his great defense but he wasn't asking you.....the only thing that mattered was that it worked. Boxing is a bottom-line sport and that's the bottom-line: It worked.

Poet

As mentioned earlier Patterson had a bad back, Ali wasnt that difficult to hit if you had fast hands and the style to neutralise his speed like Norton and Frazier, what im saying is that no one Ali faced in his prime was able to properly fight Ali the way that was needed. Ali was then able o get away with his technical flaws, however aganist Louis those technical flaws would be his downfall. Speed and reflexes are not going to be good enough to avoid someone with the handspeed of Louis he needs something more. Louis was far more dangerous than either Norton or Frazier, he had the ability to carry ut to prefection the strategies they used to trouble Ali such as: body punching, cutting off the ring, blocking/slipping the jab etc excpet he had bigger weapons than these men did.

[StarshipTrooper]

Poet, Floyd had a bad back. It is evident as the fight goes on that he is struggling..if you really think it is 100% fit Floyd...you are biased for Ali I can say that too...He was struggling after the 1st round...Second time...he was way too old.

For starters, I can't stand Ali. I think he was a 24 karot azzhole. Secondly, my all-time favorite fighter happens to be Joe Louis. I don't play favorites when I analyze.....if I did we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Speed is a form of defense it isnt the only one. Then an Olympic sprinter could be the best boxer for speed and light power. Head movement , Parrying are also forms of defense that could be used in boxing.

This just validates the point I made about there not being any "right" or "wrong" in the ring but rather whether it works or not.

Chuvalo was a medicore boxer. He had a great chin. Point is he got to Ali. He landed a lot for a slow plodding fighter. No one i saying it was a close fight. It was not. But point is many Ali fans say he was untouchable he was so swift. Louis would not get to him . well Chuvalo did and land may times. Ali I think passed blood after the fight. It was not from Chuvalo missing all the time I can assure you. If Chuvalo can get to Ali then I find it hard to believe that a top 10 ATG great wont get to Ali and not have him in some trouble.

Like I said in my previous post even the best defensive fighters get landed on multiple times in every round of every fight. The next shutout I see pitched in boxing will be the first (obviously exempting one punch and done 1st round KOs like Thunder Vs. Grimsley). The Ali fans are engaing in hyperbole when they say untouchable. It would be much more accurate to say Ali was the most difficult to hit of all the great Heavies as "untouchable" has yet to be achieved by any fighter.

I haven't seen any one saying Chuvalo missed "all the time" (see above).....but he did miss far more than landed and that's ultimately the definition of good defense.

Joe was a better more lethal boxer than Chuvalo. He would land much more simply because of his accuracy and hand speed. I don't think ALi can simply shake of those punches...

And Ali was a better and more lethal boxer than Billy Conn.....these comparisons work both ways.

You say Ali was not vulnerable to the left hook. Well that single punch floored him the most times...WHat we should believe..Ask Cooper or Frazier...

Frazier threw 90% left hooks so what else was he going to hit Ali with (and a past-prime Ali at that)? The Cooper example, as I pointed out, had Ali being caught coming off the ropes with his feet tangled up: ANY hard punch landed at that point would have put him down.

Like I said, if you watch Ali's fights he doesn't get hit with left hooks any more than he gets hit with rights. If he had any sort of "special vulnerability" to them than all his opponents would have been throwing them at him all night long and bouncing off the canvas like a basketball.

Fact is although some state that Ali is too fast..it doesnot hold up...May be in a field where there are no boundaries...In a boxing ring Joe Louis got to everyone even Walcott and Conn...see Louis Conn 2 guys...you will see Conn run...but Louis caught up to him again. So I give a 3 fight series 2-1 to Louis...To each his own I guess

You won't see Ali "running".....this is Ali not Mayweather here. Watch the Liston I: The only time you see Ali running is in the 5th when he's blind.....otherwise he's using his speed to attack from all angles and pull out before the reciept.

Poet