1 Billion:I think Joe Louis would have beaten Muhammad Ali

[StarshipTrooper]

And I have heard many Ali fans say that he could avoid the right easily...but ur saying he got hit by rights too...if he does get hit by the Joe Louis right often he might be in serious danger.

Name me the fighter who never gets hit by anything. It's not a question of "will a fighter get hit?" but rather a question of "can you hit him consistantly enough to win?" Like I said, even thevery best defensive fighters get hit. The difference is the best defensive fighters don't get hit consistantly enough for their opponents to win.

Poet

[Greatest1942]

I'm not talking about Ali going down from a slip. The point is, when you're bouncing off the ropes with your feet tangled up you're wide open for a punch.....any punch not just a left hook. Put some power behind it and you're likely to get dropped and hurt. In anycase, that flaw in Ali's footwork was fixed by the time he came into his prime from the Liston fight through 1967. Much the same way that Louis' flaw of dropping his left after the jab was fixed after the first Schmeling fight.

And by the way, put Ali in place of Conn and Louis has just as much difficulty tagging him and, here's the big difference, Ali was capable of seriously hurting Louis with his punches in a way Conn was not. Ali>>>>>>>>>>Conn offensively.....not even remotely close.

Poet

I can do this too Poet.
Similarly Louis > Frazier >>>> Chuvalo
Frazier beat a Ali who near his prime, and put Louis in Chuvalos place and you will see that there is just as much diff. between him and Louis's offence as there is between Ali and Conn...And Yes not only was Louis a better puncher than these both he was far better technically and a better defensive fighter by a wide margin.

[StarshipTrooper]

I can do this too Poet.
Similarly Louis > Frazier >>>> Chuvalo
Frazier beat a Ali who near his prime, and put Louis in Chuvalos place and you will see that there is just as much diff. between him and Louis's offence as there is between Ali and Conn...And Yes not only was Louis a better puncher than these both he was far better technically and a better defensive fighter by a wide margin.

Frazier beat an Ali who's reflexes and footspeed had slipped noticably.....not a good comparison. And Frazier was an ATG level Heavyweight.....something Conn was not. Primary difference between the Conn and Chuvalo fights is that Conn was leading on the cards and Louis had to pull a KO out of his hat to win while Chuvalo got his azz kicked from pillar to post in a completely NON-competive fight. You seem to think that all Louis had to do was land a punch and it's all over.....this despite the fact that Ali's chin is considered by the experts to be the gold standard for Heavyweights (as is his ability to take it to the body).

Poet

[Greatest1942]

Name me the fighter who never gets hit by anything. It's not a question of "will a fighter get hit?" but rather a question of "can you hit him consistantly enough to win?" Like I said, even thevery best defensive fighters get hit. The difference is the best defensive fighters don't get hit consistantly enough for their opponents to win.

Poet

''

Many Ali fans say this ...I am sure you read those too Poet.

And yes Ali could be hit consistently enough for the other too win. Frazier did it..So in my opinion can a host of other ATGs. Ali was beaten by Norton(A past his prime Ali no doubt).

What I wanna say is ...that any fighter can beaten by other greats...Ali is no exception...when his physical atrributes faded Ali became more hittable...he never learnt proper defense...But in his prime...wahhh!!! he was difficult to hit..was it impossible to hit him consistently no I dont think so...average fighters got to him...and I am sure ATG greats will get to him more regularly to make it far closer than Chuvalo, Sonny Banks, Cooper, Folley et all...Will they win no one is sure...But I dont buy those arguments which state Ali will win hands down...If you think just because Folley could not hit Ali consistently so cant Louis...As I said before and I will say again " Louis can do much better than Chuvalo".

Louis had very fast hands..was more lethal than anyone Ali faced..and vice versa...It will be close...and speed does not guarantee a win against Louis...then believe me many would have beaten him.

[Greatest1942]

Frazier beat an Ali who's reflexes and footspeed had slipped noticably.....not a good comparison. And Frazier was an ATG level Heavyweight.....something Conn was not. Primary difference between the Conn and Chuvalo fights is that Conn was leading on the cards and Louis had to pull a KO out of his hat to win while Chuvalo got his azz kicked from pillar to post in a completely NON-competive fight. You seem to think that all Louis had to do was land a punch and it's all over.....this despite the fact that Ali's chin is considered by the experts to be the gold standard for Heavyweights (as is his ability to take it to the body).

Poet

It was a good comparison..Ali was still near his prime...He still was quite fast..And yes Frazier was near his prime not at his prime as well..no matter what Ali fans say..compared to 1968-69 Frazier used his right hand much less and was already going slower. He was already diabetic too.. Sorry to burst that favorite bubble of Ali fans, but this was a near prime Ali against a near prime Frazier...Like the Foreman victory was Alis best yet he was never at his prime then so was Fraziers against Ali...dont confuse both.

Name one good fighter of his era Chuvalo beat. Conn atleast did that...Chuvalo got his ass kicked but still made Ali squirm due to his consistent body punching...And he won 2-3 rounds atleast. WHy shy away from the fact that Ali took enough to piss blood.Then either Ali's body was so delicate he pissed blood even when taking so little, or as I saw with my eyes he took enough...you dont piss blood everyday... AND it was a mediocre boxer who did it. You seem to miss the point I wanna make...and thats what Chuvalo could do Louis could do 10X better...So Ali might just find himself in some deep water.

Ali did not loose to Norton because he lost speed. He was still too fast for Norton. As Eddie Futch said...he lost because he did not know what to do with the parrying hand. I dont think it will matter if it was a prime or non 's prime Ali...A parrying hand will always trouble him. And lOUIS had a harder better jab and better followups. I will take Futch's ANALYSIS OVER ANYONE ELSE. Norton does not beat a prime Ali...but Louis being better in jab and almost everything does in my book

No I dont think there will be a knockout...Though I can say this once Louis catches Ali with some body shots there wont be much dancing...after all once ur hurt you cant float...the Frazier fight proved it...and just because Ali was never knocked out does not mean he never will...then Dempsey wont be ever ( he was Kod in fixed fight many say), Rocky Marciano etc etc...I believe Louis could KO anybosy..though most likely it will be a points decision vs Ali.

There is another primary difference between those fights..Louis was weight drained..theirs pretty reliable info on that...Ali was pretty fit..the second time...Louis caught up to a runner and KOd him...

The gold standard belongs to Chuvalo as far as chin goes in my book.

No use arguing you will never be able to convince me, you might some other boarders. And similarly neither can I.

[them_apples]

I think it's a much closer matchup that. I know you don't rate Louis (or any pre-1960 fighter for that matter.....fair enough but would be a good subject for a separate thread.) which I take into account.

I see it as more along the lines of a close decision for Ali in a one-off fight (say, 8-6-1 in rounds over 15) or a 5-4-1 split in favor of Ali if the fought 10 times.

Poet

It's not that I don't rate Louis. I said that about 2 years ago but have since then changed my opinions. I'd have no problem giving Louis the win over fighters that don't come in the ring with the same mobility and hand speed. But Schmeling was able to lead with a right over Louis low left all night long. Ali is faster-taller and Longer than Schmeling and in 60's hit's a lot better. The simple "parry jab" is nothing Ali wouldn't have seen even in the am's. As we saw later on in his career, even with his legs gone, you needed a hell of a lot more than a simple amatuer trick like that. (I'm not reffering to you but another poster who claims this).

[kendom]

It's not that I don't rate Louis. I said that about 2 years ago but have since then changed my opinions. I'd have no problem giving Louis the win over fighters that don't come in the ring with the same mobility and hand speed. But Schmeling was able to lead with a right over Louis low left all night long. Ali is faster-taller and Longer than Schmeling and in 60's hit's a lot better. The simple "parry jab" is nothing Ali wouldn't have seen even in the am's. As we saw later on in his career, even with his legs gone, you needed a hell of a lot more than a simple amatuer trick like that. (I'm not reffering to you but another poster who claims this).

Schmeling was able to do this becasue he exploited a weakness in Louis's style which he later fixed. This simple "parry jab" is the main reason why Ali struggled with Norton and why some historians even believed that Jack Johnson would defeat Ali. Nortons trainer Eddie Futch said it himself "the jab was a big reason Muhammad Ali never figured out why he had so much trouble with Ken Norton in their three fights.” It isnt an amateur trick most pro fighters today dont even learn to use it, it allowed a fighter who wasnt known for his speed to be able to keep up with him and give him three very close fights. If Norton could do that, Louis who is far more powerfu, a better technician with greater speed could do much worse, regardless of whether or not Ali was prime or past prime.

[them_apples]

Schmeling was able to do this becasue he exploited a weakness in Louis's style which he later fixed. This simple "parry jab" is the main reason why Ali struggled with Norton and why some historians even believed that Jack Johnson would defeat Ali. Nortons trainer Eddie Futch said it himself "the jab was a big reason Muhammad Ali never figured out why he had so much trouble with Ken Norton in their three fights.” It isnt an amateur trick most pro fighters today dont even learn to use it, it allowed a fighter who wasnt known for his speed to be able to keep up with him and give him three very close fights. If Norton could do that, Louis who is far more powerfu, a better technician with greater speed could do much worse, regardless of whether or not Ali was prime or past prime.

Norton didn't just Parry the jab, he slipped it over his shoulder more times than I can even remember. Norton was an awkward fighter and if you were just going to sit on the outside and box with him, well he'd give you hell. Louis isn't defensively sound enough to thwart Ali's jab all night long. Louis was more so a devastating puncher on the inside who would stalk his opponent's, looking to land that right hand. Louis would get his licks in from time to time, but there is no way his defense can deal with Ali's assault.

[Greatest1942]

Norton didn't just Parry the jab, he slipped it over his shoulder more times than I can even remember. Norton was an awkward fighter and if you were just going to sit on the outside and box with him, well he'd give you hell. Louis isn't defensively sound enough to thwart Ali's jab all night long. Louis was more so a devastating puncher on the inside who would stalk his opponent's, looking to land that right hand. Louis would get his licks in from time to time, but there is no way his defense can deal with Ali's assault.

Ye slipping punches over shoulders is a speciality of 100 of other boxer...It was teh parry and the jab timed with the parry, that confused Ali. He couldnt move away while teh jab hit him...I can say that Ali too is not defensively strong enough to avoid Louis...these kidn of statements dont mean much.

[kendom]

Norton didn't just Parry the jab, he slipped it over his shoulder more times than I can even remember. Norton was an awkward fighter and if you were just going to sit on the outside and box with him, well he'd give you hell. Louis isn't defensively sound enough to thwart Ali's jab all night long. Louis was more so a devastating puncher on the inside who would stalk his opponent's, looking to land that right hand. Louis would get his licks in from time to time, but there is no way his defense can deal with Ali's assault.

Why isnt he defensive enough to thwart Alis jab all night long? Louis had a great defense, blocking parry, slipping jabs and it was definetly the jab problem that hurt Ali in the case of Norton, Louis is a lot more complete than you give him credit for, and why would it be so hard fo him to keep up with Alis assault when hes costantly blocking the jab? blocking alis jab would destroy his ryhtmn