Who do you have as you No3 HW and why?

[Steak]

I dislike this whole "Foreman was smarter and better post 40" thing I hear often. its simply not true whatsoever.

Foreman DID know how to pace himself in his 20s. go watch his fight with George Chuvalo, for example. He starts picking away at him with his jab, keeps the distance, waits for a big punch to land, and then digs to the body. If thats not 'controlled' for Foreman I dont know what is.

I think a big problem people have is that they look at Foreman post or during Ali to judge him. imo, he got overconfident and fired up leading up to the Ali bout, and wasnt quite the same fighter that had beaten Norton and Frazier. No, Im not suggesting he would have beaten Ali, dont bite my head off. But he certainly was more wild and his punches werent as crisp.

post Ali he was too angry to be more focused. Thats why they had that silly 'Foreman KOs 5 guys in one night' charade, to boost his confidence and get him back in shape. even then, if you watch it then hes very pissed off and ****ing around in a bunch of the matches, totally unlike what youd expect from him.

basically what Im saying is...you can make some sort of argument for post 40 Foreman being a better fighter than post Ali pre retirement Foreman(from Lyle or Young). but pre Ali Foreman(from Fraizer and Chuvalo)? not a chance.

[studentofthegam]

I dislike this whole "Foreman was smarter and better post 40" thing I hear often. its simply not true whatsoever.

Foreman DID know how to pace himself in his 20s. go watch his fight with George Chuvalo, for example. He starts picking away at him with his jab, keeps the distance, waits for a big punch to land, and then digs to the body. If thats not 'controlled' for Foreman I dont know what is.

I think a big problem people have is that they look at Foreman post or during Ali to judge him. imo, he got overconfident and fired up leading up to the Ali bout, and wasnt quite the same fighter that had beaten Norton and Frazier. No, Im not suggesting he would have beaten Ali, dont bite my head off. But he certainly was more wild and his punches werent as crisp.

post Ali he was too angry to be more focused. Thats why they had that silly 'Foreman KOs 5 guys in one night' charade, to boost his confidence and get him back in shape. even then, if you watch it then hes very pissed off and ****ing around in a bunch of the matches, totally unlike what youd expect from him.

basically what Im saying is...you can make some sort of argument for post 40 Foreman being a better fighter than post Ali pre retirement Foreman(from Lyle or Young). but pre Ali Foreman(from Fraizer and Chuvalo)? not a chance.

Yes the argument can be made. He had no choice but to be smarter because he only had power to go on. You subtract the little speed he had, youth and lumber jack physique what do you have left? Ring smarts, and power. To win a championship at 45 I think smarter had plenty to do with it. And dont tell me to watch him fight that "ring technician" Chuvalo to show how great a boxer George could be. That is a terrible measuring stick. He was a punching bag and the fight lasted 10 minutes.

[IronDanHamza]

Naturally I think Floyd is the best I've ever seen just to nip that in the bud.

IMO is key. IMO Holy thumps him. Lenox thumps him. Klitschko thumps him. Bowe (in shape) thumps him. He was just extremely slow and out of controll.

Based of what? Based of what do all of these fighters 'thump' him?

It was easy to see he was a bully in the ring like no one had seen before.

Cue Sonny Liston.

By the late 80's HW were getting a little bigger and stronger. By 1990 the giants were coming along with great jabs.

Again, cue Sonny Liston.

You give me BHop at 40 and 4/5 times he spanks BHop 30 "IMO". I stay in the minority, not a problem as you know.

Ridiculous. Hopkins at 30 is clearly a better fighter than Hopkins at 40.

Yes any version of anybody has a problem with the greatest, no doubt. I just think a smarter George in '74 could get Ali. I didnt say he mops the flooor with him. But he was in good position and let it go with wasted energy.

I don't see how any version of George Foreman beats Muhammad Ali.

[IronDanHamza]

Yes the argument can be made. He had no choice but to be smarter because he only had power to go on. You subtract the little speed he had, youth and lumber jack physique what do you have left? Ring smarts, and power. To win a championship at 45 I think smarter had plenty to do with it. And dont tell me to watch him fight that "ring technician" Chuvalo to show how great a boxer George could be. That is a terrible measuring stick. He was a punching bag and the fight lasted 10 minutes.

As opposed to the great and prestigous Heavyweight Champion Micheal Moorer? In which he was dominating oh so much right up to the KO punch?

[Steak]

Yes the argument can be made. He had no choice but to be smarter because he only had power to go on. You subtract the little speed he had, youth and lumber jack physique what do you have left? Ring smarts, and power. To win a championship at 45 I think smarter had plenty to do with it. And dont tell me to watch him fight that "ring technician" Chuvalo to show how great a boxer George could be. That is a terrible measuring stick. He was a punching bag and the fight lasted 10 minutes.

watch his fights against Chuvalo or Frazier. now watch his fights against say Lyle or Holyfield. You honestly dont think Foreman's punches look sharper pre Ali?

I think older Foreman was calmer and more emotionally in control. but skill wise not much more different. and physically(and Foreman was no doubt a physical fighter) I dont think it can be debated that 20 year old Foreman is better than 40+ year old.

[studentofthegam]

Based of what? Based of what do all of these fighters 'thump' him?



Cue Sonny Liston.



Again, cue Sonny Liston.



Ridiculous. Hopkins at 30 is clearly a better fighter than Hopkins at 40.



I don't see how any version of George Foreman beats Muhammad Ali.

Based on length minus Holyfield because he's inside. Good jabs and footwork combined with power. George had balance trouble and was a wild swing. Guys his size could control distance much better than the smaller guys he fought. I just dont think Evander gets overwhelmed to the point of not throwing and Foreman was much more wide open as a young man than as a man almost half a century.

Sonny Liston was not near the physical specimen Foreman was. He was feared like Foreman(pre-Ali for both) but thats where it stops. I said the "new" style of big man. And Liston in hindsight wasnt a huge guy.


Bhop fought better guys over all at a later age. Sure theres Roy but outside that I think DLH and Trinidad were done before they started. Good resume padding though. I say the fights with JT were more dangerous than both. Throw in Tarver and Winky then 40 yr old BHop smothers 30 yr old Bhop. Cheers to the minority.

[studentofthegam]

As opposed to the great and prestigous Heavyweight Champion Micheal Moorer? In which he was dominating oh so much right up to the KO punch?

The Moorer fight is an excellent example of the change since you mentioned it. It boiled down to I saved enough to get you. Foreman even during the comeback never planned to win a bunch of decisions. Way to "own" yourself. The Chuvalo fight wasnt smart. He was winging punches everywhere. I wont say everywhere because he landed a lot but who didnt against Chuvalo. Off balance a lot of the time.

watch his fights against Chuvalo or Frazier. now watch his fights against say Lyle or Holyfield. You honestly dont think Foreman's punches look sharper pre Ali?

I think older Foreman was calmer and more emotionally in control. but skill wise not much more different. and physically(and Foreman was no doubt a physical fighter) I dont think it can be debated that 20 year old Foreman is better than 40+ year old.

Yes he was calmer and more emotionally under control. Is it possible that it makes you a better fighter? Yall are reaching so bad and proving my point. I'll take a HW thats less erratic and hits a ton over a wild swinging, off balance young lion that cant take a ribbing.

[IronDanHamza]

Based on length minus Holyfield because he's inside. Good jabs and footwork combined with power. George had balance trouble and was a wild swing. Guys his size could control distance much better than the smaller guys he fought. I just dont think Evander gets overwhelmed to the point of not throwing and Foreman was much more wide open as a young man than as a man almost half a century.

Kind of a brash thing to base it off.

Sonny Liston was not near the physical specimen Foreman was. He was feared like Foreman(pre-Ali for both) but thats where it stops. I said the "new" style of big man. And Liston in hindsight wasnt a huge guy.

Well, that is where you are completely and utterly wrong.

Sonny Liston was absolutely the physical specimen that George Foreman was.

Liston in hindsight was absolutely a big guy. Foreman is not that much bigger than him.

Foreman says himself that Sonny Liston is the only man that ever backed him up.

Bhop fought better guys over all at a later age. Sure theres Roy but outside that I think DLH and Trinidad were done before they started. Good resume padding though. I say the fights with JT were more dangerous than both. Throw in Tarver and Winky then 40 yr old BHop smothers 30 yr old Bhop. Cheers to the minority.

You talk about Trinidad been over before it started yet praise the Winky Wright fight? Why?

Jermain Taylor more dangerous than Felix Trinidad?

[IronDanHamza]

The Moorer fight is an excellent example of the change since you mentioned it. It boiled down to I saved enough to get you. Foreman even during the comeback never planned to win a bunch of decisions. Way to "own" yourself. The Chuvalo fight wasnt smart. He was winging punches everywhere. I wont say everywhere because he landed a lot but who didnt against Chuvalo. Off balance a lot of the time.

Example of change? Who talked about 'change'? Of course he changed his style.....

You said Chuvalo isn't a good measuring stick.

My response was "As opposed to Micheal Moorer?"

@ Way to own myself. Ooooook.

Yes he was calmer and more emotionally under control. Is it possible that it makes you a better fighter? Yall are reaching so bad and proving my point. I'll take a HW thats less erratic and hits a ton over a wild swinging, off balance young lion that cant take a ribbing.

It's possible.

But In this situation? No, it's wrong.

You might take that. That being said you think Julio Cesar Chavez fights like Carlos Baldomir and Thomas Hearns fights like Paul Williams.

It's completely inaccurate, but to each it's own.

[studentofthegam]

Kind of a brash thing to base it off.





Well, that is where you are completely and utterly wrong.

Sonny Liston was absolutely the physical specimen that George Foreman was.

Liston in hignsight was absolutely a big guy. Foreman is not that much bigger than him.

Foreman says himself that Sonny Liston is the only man that ever backed him up.




You talk about Trinidad been over before it started yet praise the Winky Wright fight? Why?

Jermain Taylor more dangerous than Felix Trinidad?

Yeah if "brash" means it makes sense and you have no reply.

LOok at the difference in build between the two. Foreman is much more imposing. He hit harder. He could cover way more distance with his height and reach. No, not the same. Just say you made a bad comparison and move on. Yeah and Floyd said Augustus was his toughest fight with those two fights with Castillo lingering. Its just respect. No doubt Liston was stong but not the "new" HW build and strength by a long shot.

When it comes to Trinidad the match up was all in favor of BHop. He was defensive and considerably the naturally bigger guy. Tinidad is a free swinger that followed. Atleast I knew he had no chance. You see Winky was defensive also so it made for a tighter fight and a way better match up than Trinidad. Trinidad has always been overrated. He added some good names to his res and road it out. And you're damn right JT is more dangerous. He's faster, bigger and rangier. If he could manage to stay awake we'd be talking where he ranks P4P. Cant teach chin. If you dont think Jt's more dangerous then there is video proof of how a defensive wiz and crafty veteran Hopkins attacked them differently. He opened up against Felix because he felt extremely comfortable.