Who do you have as you No3 HW and why?

[Wild Blue Yonda]

Neither did Foreman.

Norton, Shavers, Weaver, Cooney.....I'd put those guys over Jimmy Young (Young lost to three of the four, two by KO). And I don't see Holmes having much issue with a mover like Young the way Foreman did. Holmes could be outworked, but he wasn't going to be outslicked.

PS. For the record, Young lost his shot at Holmes by losing twice to Ossie Ocasio who got the shot instead.

Poet

You must be joking about the Young-Foreman fight. Foreman won his share of rounds & to say he landed nothing prior to the 8th is flat wrong --- not even debatable. He bounced Young around like a basketball in the 7th. Have you even seen this fight!?

Again, your criticisms of Young are unreasonable. He lost to Shavers in, what, his 10th or 12th fight? When they fought again on more even terms, Young school him easily. Shavers received a horrid gift in getting, "the draw." Cooney is even more ridiculous to bring up. Are you gleaning this entirely from BoxRec's database? Everybody knows the state Young was in when he fought Cooney --- people knew it then, & people know it now. It's meaningless. Young lost an either-way decision against Norton, there's zero shame.

I'm not saying Young deserved a shot at Holmes. I don't even want to argue, for that matter, about Foreman & Young. What I'm saying is open Holmes' record on BoxRec, take a look at the list of fighters he beat between 1979-85 (& note how amazingly green some of them were, a point never discussed). Foreman would annihilate everyone on that list & Spinks would've been just another victim.

Holmes has an over-rated title reign.

[Devroy Jones]

I too voted for Jack Johnson, cause he was one of the few men who knew the rudiments of boxing. And he could outbox, brawl and dodge any opponent anyday. The guy was a master at glove parrying, clinching and other defensive tactics in general.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

I too voted for Jack Johnson, cause he was one of the few men who knew the rudiments of boxing. And he could outbox, brawl and dodge any opponent anyday. The guy was a master at glove parrying, clinching and other defensive tactics in general.

He almost never faced quality combination punchers and it wouldve told against the likes of a Dempsey or a Louis.

[Southpaw Stinger]

I'm happy with either Holmes, Johnson or Foreman.

A definitive list is impossible though.

[StarshipTrooper]

You must be joking about the Young-Foreman fight. Foreman won his share of rounds & to say he landed nothing prior to the 8th is flat wrong --- not even debatable. He bounced Young around like a basketball in the 7th. Have you even seen this fight!?

I've seen the fight a number of times (including when it actually happened as it was carried by ABC's Wide World Of Sports). Young was never in any real danger in that fight hence one of the judges scoring it by a lopsided margin in his favor.

Again, your criticisms of Young are unreasonable. He lost to Shavers in, what, his 10th or 12th fight? When they fought again on more even terms, Young school him easily. Shavers received a horrid gift in getting, "the draw." Cooney is even more ridiculous to bring up. Are you gleaning this entirely from BoxRec's database? Everybody knows the state Young was in when he fought Cooney --- people knew it then, & people know it now. It's meaningless. Young lost an either-way decision against Norton, there's zero shame.

When was a I criticising Young? I simply pointed out that he was a second tier contender who was not as good as the guys Holmes fought who were considered top tier contenders at the time. I also pointed out that Young lost to three out of the four you're criticising Holmes for fighting instead of Young.

I'm not saying Young deserved a shot at Holmes. I don't even want to argue, for that matter, about Foreman & Young. What I'm saying is open Holmes' record on BoxRec, take a look at the list of fighters he beat between 1979-85 (& note how amazingly green some of them were, a point never discussed). Foreman would annihilate everyone on that list & Spinks would've been just another victim.

And Holmes would breeze through the vast majority of the tomato cans on Foreman's record. Seriously, take out Ali and Frazier and who did Foreman fight really? And what's the issue with Spinks anyway? Holmes was past-it when he fought Spinks and people hd been noticing it since the Bey fight. Come on man.....my formative years in boxing coincided with Holmes' title reign. Not only am I familiar with his opponents I didn't miss a single one of his title fights in that period.

Holmes has an over-rated title reign.

And so does:
Tyson
Marciano
Dempsey
Lennox
And practically any Heavyweight not named Ali or Louis.

I'm starting to think you have some sort of personal issue with Holmes. Maybe not a Sonnyboy "Lennox is Satan" extreme, but enough that you have a trigger flipped when he comes up

Poet

[Wild Blue Yonda]

You havent seen Young-Foreman if youre contending Foreman landed nothing serious before the 8th, or that Young was never in danger. Those arent even close to being debatable.

[StarshipTrooper]

You havent seen Young-Foreman if youre contending Foreman landed nothing serious before the 8th, or that Young was never in danger. Those arent even close to being debatable.

And yet I've seen the fight a number of times and I am debating it. At no time did I see Young seriously hurt. Foreman lost the fight by 4 points on 1 card and 7 points on another. That's about as clear a loss as you can get. Prehaps you should watch that fight again, this time WITHOUT a rooting interest. I'm sure if you're pulling for Foreman you can find a way to shade every remotely close round to him.....but that's not how we score fights now is it?

Poet

[Steak]

7th round is at 20:00 in.

Young is pretty ****ed up.


regardless, I have Holmes at 3, because while Foreman's resume has quality, it just doesnt have enough quantity.

[StarshipTrooper]

7th round is at 20:00 in.

Young is pretty ****ed up.


regardless, I have Holmes at 3, because while Foreman's resume has quality, it just doesnt have enough quantity.

Now shut off the volume and rewatch it without Cosell's overdramatized commentary. Young got pushed back by a left, few of the followup punches landed cleanly. At one point Young stumbles over Foreman's foot rights himself and starts punching back. By the end of the round Young had landed as many clean shots as Foreman had.

Poet

[Steak]

Now shut off the volume and rewatch it without Cosell's overdramatized commentary. Young got pushed back by a left, few of the followup punches landed cleanly. At one point Young stumbles over Foreman's foot rights himself and starts punching back. By the end of the round Young had landed as many clean shots as Foreman had.

Poet

I dont care about commentary, and after watching it muted, my opinion hasnt really changed. look at Young's body language and demeanor after getting clocked with the left hook. his legs stiffen up, his eyes become vacant, hes stumbling about...

hey, personally, thats 'hurt' to me, even though Young did make a pretty damn impressive recovery.