Joe Frazier delivers hellacious beating to Ali.

[them_apples]

Ali didn't have the same legs when he came back because he had grown into a man so to speak. Ali in 67' in my book looked very light and mobile but didn't possess the same strength and chin as he did in his comeback.

It's hard to say what ali would benefit more from, his better chin and durability, or quicker feet. his hands retained the same speed.

Seeing Ali was dropped by the likes of Doug jones and Henry coopers left hook, I'm curious how he fares against Frazier. I don't see him getting caught as much but if he does get caught how does he react? there is also the idea of how well does Frazier take prime ali's snapping punches? He had more snap in his youth and his mobility have him the Manny Pacquiao syndrome we are seeing today, hitting an oponent when they don't see it coming, a la Sonny Liston.

I can only debate, but Frazier got that win by training his ass off. not only was he tough but his left hand was very very fast that night.

[CarlosG815]

Ali was not significantly bigger when he fought Frazier. 213,212,215 in the first three fights of his comeback including Frazier. 212.212,211. Before the lay off. Basically the same weight. That's not even comperable to moving up in weight.


I don't see in any way how that had any impact on his ability to take a punch.

Joseph you are making yourself look incredibly foolish. In what you call Ali's prime he was weighing between 195-210, and against Frazier he was 215, and after that around 225.

How can you say it doesn't make a difference going from 200 to 215-225?

What are you saying? You are being totally irrational and once again are stretching opinion to unbelievable bounds.

[joseph5620]

Ali didn't have the same legs when he came back because he had grown into a man so to speak. Ali in 67' in my book looked very light and mobile but didn't possess the same strength and chin as he did in his comeback.

It's hard to say what ali would benefit more from, his better chin and durability, or quicker feet. his hands retained the same speed.

Seeing Ali was dropped by the likes of Doug jones and Henry coopers left hook, I'm curious how he fares against Frazier. I don't see him getting caught as much but if he does get caught how does he react? there is also the idea of how well does Frazier take prime ali's snapping punches? He had more snap in his youth and his mobility have him the Manny Pacquiao syndrome we are seeing today, hitting an oponent when they don't see it coming, a la Sonny Liston.

I can only debate, but Frazier got that win by training his ass off. not only was he tough but his left hand was very very fast that night.

Ali was never dropped by Doug Jones. And we're talking about Ali from 1967 in his last fight before the exile. Not 21 year old Ali from 1963.

You can't compare the two unless you want to use Frazier in a similar part of his career.

[StarshipTrooper]

Isn't the entire reason behind weight classes is the theory says that heavier men can take a harder punch? Obviously if Ali was bigger he could take more of a punch.

The theory is that a NATURALLY bigger man can take more punishment. Adding 20 pounds of lard to make you artificially bigger isn't going to make you take a punch better.

Poet

[joseph5620]

Joseph you are making yourself look incredibly foolish. In what you call Ali's prime he was weighing between 195-210, and against Frazier he was 215, and after that around 225.

How can you say it doesn't make a difference going from 200 to 215-225?

What are you saying? You are being totally irrational and once again are stretching opinion to unbelievable bounds.

I think you are the one who looks foolish by claiming I said Ali was in his prime when he fought under 200 pounds. Or you're just flat out lying. I pointed out Ali's last three fights before the lay off. Where did I mention Ali at 19 and 20 under 200 pounds? And Ali was not 225 when he fought Frazier in the first fight. And I believe the first fight was the fight in question. You're just picking random weights from Ali's career that have nothing to do with what he weighed when he fought Frazier in fight 1.




Ali did not go from 200 to 215 for the Frazier fight.

[StarshipTrooper]

but didn't possess same strength and chin as he did in his comeback

As I said before, people put too much stock in overall strength when it comes to boxing. Frank Bruno was strong as hell but ****ed his reflexes with all that weightlifting.....to his detriment as a fighter.

As for chin, I'm sorry but that's something you're born with.....or not. You can't just go out and develope your chin: If you could guys like Terry Norris would have done so very early on. Pre-Liston, Ali had bad footwork and would get his feet tangled up frequently especially coming off the ropes. That more than anything was the reason he got dropped by Cooper, not some deficiency of chin he supposedly had pre-layoff.

Poet

[boxing boy]

Joseph you are making yourself look incredibly foolish. In what you call Ali's prime he was weighing between 195-210, and against Frazier he was 215, and after that around 225.

How can you say it doesn't make a difference going from 200 to 215-225?

What are you saying? You are being totally irrational and once again are stretching opinion to unbelievable bounds.

Your saying that Ali was weighing between 195-210 in his prime?

Here are his fights in his prime from 1964-1967....

Sonny Liston 210 1/2
Sonny Liston 206
Floyd Patterson 210
George Chuvalo 214 1/2
Henry Cooper 201 1/2
Brian London 209 1/2
Karl Mildenberger 204 1/4
Cleveland Williams 212 3/4
Ernie Terrell 212 1/4
Zora Folley 211 1/2

His 3 1/2 year lay-off...

Jerry Quarry 213 1/2
Oscar Bonavena 212
Joe Frazier 215

[Scott9945]

Your saying that Ali was weighing between 195-210 in his prime?

Here are his fights in his prime from 1964-1967....

Sonny Liston 210 1/2
Sonny Liston 206
Floyd Patterson 210
George Chuvalo 214 1/2
Henry Cooper 201 1/2
Brian London 209 1/2
Karl Mildenberger 204 1/4
Cleveland Williams 212 3/4
Ernie Terrell 212 1/4
Zora Folley 211 1/2

His 3 1/2 year lay-off...

Jerry Quarry 213 1/2
Oscar Bonavena 212
Joe Frazier 215

That looks like pretty compelling evidence to me.

Two things that I know are true:

1) Ali was a better fighter in the 1960's.

2) Ali fought much better opposition in the 1970's.

The fact that he beat the better opposition at less than his best is proof of his true greatness.

[Vadrigar.]

What evidence do you have to support what you are saying?

I have already given some including video evidence and some quotes. He was not prime anymore because his reflexes softened and his legs were slower.

This is Cus D'Amato:

Ali had all his best wins and performances post ban including wins over Quarry, Bonavena, Foster, 3 classics w Frazier, Foreman, Patterson, and other greatness defining victories and performances.

Just because his best wins were post ban, it doesn't mean he was a prime fighter. Ali beating fighters while past prime is a testament to his greatness. After he TKO's Quarry Ali said his legs were extremely tired and that was only after a few rounds! That's evidence that his stamina had declined compared to 1967.

In the Bonanza fight he looked Flimsy and sluggish. That fight showed how he couldn't swiftly pull back from punches anymore. Ali was way past it for manila, pretty obvious if you've seen it on film.

What are you basing this "he was not prime anymore" claim? When did Ali show post ban that he was not "prime?"

the main factor is reflexes as i have pointed out.

He was not the same lighter guy who was quicker on his feet but he was still prime and I think that his resume post ban is what has defined his place as the GOAT.

Sonny Liston was a pretty heavy win, but i do agree. However there is no way he was still prime if his reflexes had softened.

[Steak]

I've always been confused by that logic as well. Either you can take a punch or you can't. It's not something you "develope"

I dont agree with this. physically there are things that make you more durable...like neck and leg endurance...and also there is a certain amount of skill to taking punches, such as turning your head with the punch, bracing yourself for the punch, and always knowing when a punch is going to land("the punch you dont see coming hurts the most")
also weight drain can very much affect your punch resistance, but of course that doesnt apply to Ali, being a HW at his natural weight.

Ali specifically went out of his way to get hit in sparring, so he could 'get used to it'.

it wont make you go from having a **** chin to a good chin, but you definitely can make yourself more punch resistant.

however, His 67' version very likely already had developed both of the above, and he was clearly prime pre-exile.