Who are the best Heavyweights all time over 230 pounds?

[StarshipTrooper]

Okay...there will always be the lunatic fringe. Point I'm making, though, is that the general (& generally-sane) people disregard Amatuer bouts when discussing fights between Pros which happen years later into the development of fighters --- & with good reason.

Bowe & Lewis is no different. If anything, although Bowe peaked much earlier as a Pro, it was Lewis who had the big, big advantage in experience & learning-curve when they actually met.

And your point is well taken. Amatuer fights have absolutly no bearing on what happens in the pros.....they're two different sports really. Henry Tillman beat Mike Tyson twice in the ams: Look what happend when they laced them up for dollars. Now it's certainly possible that the Lewis fight in the Olympics had a psychological effect on Bowe, but we have no way to know for sure.....it's pure speculation.

Truth be told, there's plenty of criticism that Bowe's open to without bringing up a meaningless amatuer fight.....his eating habits for instance.

Poet

[Wild Blue Yonda]

Jorge Luis Gonzalez beat Bowe as an amateur but Bowe won when they met in the pros. Buster Mathis beat Frazier as an amateur but Frazier won in the pros. Henry Tillman beat Tyson as an amateur but Tyson won in the pros. What happened in amateur fights doesn't usually have much bearing on pro fights.

Of course not, but this is the one fight where it is always brought up.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

And your point is well taken. Amatuer fights have absolutly no bearing on what happens in the pros.....they're two different sports really. Henry Tillman beat Mike Tyson twice in the ams: Look what happend when they laced them up for dollars. Now it's certainly possible that the Lewis fight in the Olympics had a psychological effect on Bowe, but we have no way to know for sure.....it's pure speculation.

Truth be told, there's plenty of criticism that Bowe's open to without bringing up a meaningless amatuer fight.....his eating habits for instance.

Poet

Moreso than either Holyfield or Golota, I felt Bowe's discipline was his ultimate undoing. Couldn't stay out of the kitchen, the way some couldn't stay off the gear, or the booze...

[Kid McCoy]

The Klitschkos don't even have a one-hit to be called wonders. Bowe's victory over a prime Holyfield, for what it's worth, is better than any single win achieved by either of the Klitschkos or Lewis.

But one win doesn't make a career. Randy Turpin's win over Sugar Ray Robinson is better than any single win most fighters achieve in their careers. Hagler, Monzon, Zale, Hopkins, Tiger, Ketchel and co never had a win to compare to that. That doesn't mean Turpin was greater than them.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

But one win doesn't make a career. Randy Turpin's win over Sugar Ray Robinson is better than any single win most fighters achieve in their careers. Hagler, Monzon, Zale, Hopkins, Tiger, Ketchel and co never had a win to compare to that. That doesn't mean Turpin was greater than them.

Nope, & I'm not arguing that. Just stating that, though it may be one win, it's still better than anything those three fighters did on one night. Lewis has a better career than Bowe by absolute miles, but his best victories aren't even close to what Bowe did. Likewise for the Klitschkos --- the difference is, though, that I could see a strong case for Lewis beating Bowe, prime-for-prime. The Klitschkos, not in the least.

[StarshipTrooper]

Nope, & I'm not arguing that. Just stating that, though it may be one win, it's still better than anything those three fighters did on one night. Lewis has a better career than Bowe by absolute miles, but his best victories aren't even close to what Bowe did. Likewise for the Klitschkos --- the difference is, though, that I could see a strong case for Lewis beating Bowe, prime-for-prime. The Klitschkos, not in the least.

And unlike Turpin's Robinson win compared to the others, Bowe's win one win over Holyfield is better than either Klit's entire resume combined.

Poet

[Scott9945]

The Klitschkos don't even have a one-hit to be called wonders. Bowe's victory over a prime Holyfield, for what it's worth, is better than any single win achieved by either of the Klitschkos or Lewis.

Ultimately this thead is titled best all time, not best one time. Both of the brothers have been performing at a better level for a longer period of time. And they've beaten better fighters than Dokes and Ferguson. Just their bad luck they didn't have an Evander Holyfield to help achieve more recognition in the US and Western Europe.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

Ultimately this thead is titled best all time, not best one time. Both of the brothers have been performing at a better level for a longer period of time. And they've beaten better fighters than Dokes and Ferguson. Just their bad luck they didn't have an Evander Holyfield to help achieve more recognition in the US and Western Europe.

Which is why, as stated, I give Lewis the higher ranking, all-time, than Bowe. I think on their best nights, Bowe was the better fighter, but it's open to debate, & since Lewis had such a better career (which isn't open to debate), Lewis wins. There is no one the Klitschkos have beaten, though, who Bowe would not, & I am very firmly of the belief the best Bowe would be too hot for either brother to handle. In broad strokes, Junior isn't durable enough, & Big Brother isn't talented (or skilled) enough.

Is it really bad luck that a fighter of Holyfield's calibre doesn't exist in this era for the Klitschkos? I think such a fighter defeats them both. Junior has certainly lost to lesser men, & Big Brother's only rival of similar standing to a prime Holyfield was an out-of-shape Lewis, who got the best of him.

Personally, I think the Klitschko's can handle better opposition than what they've had to (evidenced by what have usually been resounding victories), but big deal, any great, or even very good HW, could do the same, & I think in a prime Holyfield-calibre rival, both brothers would fall.

[Scott9945]

Which is why, as stated, I give Lewis the higher ranking, all-time, than Bowe. I think on their best nights, Bowe was the better fighter, but it's open to debate, & since Lewis had such a better career (which isn't open to debate), Lewis wins. There is no one the Klitschkos have beaten, though, who Bowe would not, & I am very firmly of the belief the best Bowe would be too hot for either brother to handle. In broad strokes, Junior isn't durable enough, & Big Brother isn't talented (or skilled) enough.

Is it really bad luck that a fighter of Holyfield's calibre doesn't exist in this era for the Klitschkos? I think such a fighter defeats them both. Junior has certainly lost to lesser men, & Big Brother's only rival of similar standing to a prime Holyfield was an out-of-shape Lewis, who got the best of him.

Personally, I think the Klitschko's can handle better opposition than what they've had to (evidenced by what have usually been resounding victories), but big deal, any great, or even very good HW, could do the same, & I think in a prime Holyfield-calibre rival, both brothers would fall.

We may have different ideas how a fight between the Holyfield who lost to Bowe and the K bros would have gone. But the lack of the opportunity is bad luck. I imagine had they fought in different eras some fans would have claimed Ali was lucky to have never fought Liston or Foreman. But he got that chance and won both fights as a major underdog.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

That's a fair point --- I certainly won't deny you that.

I will say, though, that at a certain point, when the competition just isn't there, you have to judge a fighter on what they do in the ring, & seeing their talents, their skills, & their general list of abilities & attributes, you either make a leap of faith in regard to how good an opponent they are capable of beating, or you don't.

For instance, I can hardly name a better fighter I've ever seen in my lifetime (& I've been watching this sport since I was barely a teen, going right back to the early-60's) than Ricardo Lopez --- absolutely a beautiful, beautiful fighter. Now, people will say, "Well, the competition wasn't there, we can't really know just how great he was," etc. Fair play to all of that, but I saw in him what I think was a true all-time great, even if his career fails to truly prove that idea.

To a lesser extent (just going off the top of my head, here) I always thought very highly of Shane Mosley in his Lightweight days. Watching him, I thought this guy could beat (or at least hang with) some really great LW's of yesteryear (not the very best, mind, but still), but we'll never know while he's bashing his way through these scrubs.

With the Klitschkos', I don't get that feeling at the very highest level. I cannot see them fighting the way they do & beating the best Heavies who ever lived. Big Brother is an arm-puncher with little fluidity to any of his in-ring movements, & Junior is just too clingy & fragile to avoid exposure at the hands of the true greats. Some people will watch them, taking their divisionary-dominance into account, & disagree completely with me.

Whatever floats one's boat, I say.