Who are the best Heavyweights all time over 230 pounds?

[The_Demon]

Its between Lewis and Bowe,have to go for LL as he has a much deeper resume and is the more accomplished fighter by a country mile

[bklynboy]

That's a fair point --- I certainly won't deny you that.

I will say, though, that at a certain point, when the competition just isn't there, you have to judge a fighter on what they do in the ring, & seeing their talents, their skills, & their general list of abilities & attributes, you either make a leap of faith in regard to how good an opponent they are capable of beating, or you don't.

For instance, I can hardly name a better fighter I've ever seen in my lifetime (& I've been watching this sport since I was barely a teen, going right back to the early-60's) than Ricardo Lopez --- absolutely a beautiful, beautiful fighter. Now, people will say, "Well, the competition wasn't there, we can't really know just how great he was," etc. Fair play to all of that, but I saw in him what I think was a true all-time great, even if his career fails to truly prove that idea.

To a lesser extent (just going off the top of my head, here) I always thought very highly of Shane Mosley in his Lightweight days. Watching him, I thought this guy could beat (or at least hang with) some really great LW's of yesteryear (not the very best, mind, but still), but we'll never know while he's bashing his way through these scrubs.

With the Klitschkos', I don't get that feeling at the very highest level. I cannot see them fighting the way they do & beating the best Heavies who ever lived. Big Brother is an arm-puncher with little fluidity to any of his in-ring movements, & Junior is just too clingy & fragile to avoid exposure at the hands of the true greats. Some people will watch them, taking their divisionary-dominance into account, & disagree completely with me.

Whatever floats one's boat, I say.

Well said. As much as I like the Ks as men I don't see them as ATGs. I think both of them would have been much better if they fought more people who truly challenged them. I don't buy the argument that K-fans have that the K brothers are just too good and so nobody can truly challenge them. Their footwork is slow, their balance not the best and their stamina is suspect. Little brother's chin is definitely suspect.

I think both of them, especially Wladimir would have been better boxers if they lost weight. Yeah, they wouldn't look as sculpted, and as Holywood, but they would have made up for it with increased speed and endurance.

[New England]

Big men with premium athletic talents dont box anymore. chris arreola was the american hope...

that dude cant even run


there arent ANY premium athletes heading to boxing anymore in the states


you'd better believe that if they did you'd see heavyweights who are six seven, six eight, seven feet tall, who can move about the ring ont heir toes


think about it...


men are bigger, stronger, faster,
its a combination of genetics
nutrition
gigantic medical advancements (especially in the treatment of athletic injuries)



there's no rule that says ver 230, cannot box

lebron james
dwight howard
blake griffin

tell me these guys (assuming they have the heart and chin)
couldnt lace up gloves at 7 years old
become world class (as they are in BB)
and be the next 250-260 lb heavyweight champion




the HW's of the past are vastly superior in terms of skills and ability compared to the HW's toda
they're even superior athletes (though smaller)


but that's only because great big athletes dont head to boxing anymore



if you dont think that size is a MASSIVE advantage in heavyweight boxing you've never been hit hard in the head

and i invite you to stick your chin out while i hit you with 230 + lbs of hook and drop you like a bad habit

[bklynboy]

Big men with premium athletic talents dont box anymore. chris arreola was the american hope...

that dude cant even run


there arent ANY premium athletes heading to boxing anymore in the states


you'd better believe that if they did you'd see heavyweights who are six seven, six eight, seven feet tall, who can move about the ring ont heir toes


think about it...


men are bigger, stronger, faster,
its a combination of genetics
nutrition
gigantic medical advancements (especially in the treatment of athletic injuries)



there's no rule that says ver 230, cannot box

lebron james
dwight howard
blake griffin

tell me these guys (assuming they have the heart and chin)
couldnt lace up gloves at 7 years old
become world class (as they are in BB)
and be the next 250-260 lb heavyweight champion




the HW's of the past are vastly superior in terms of skills and ability compared to the HW's toda
they're even superior athletes (though smaller)


but that's only because great big athletes dont head to boxing anymore



if you dont think that size is a MASSIVE advantage in heavyweight boxing you've never been hit hard in the head

and i invite you to stick your chin out while i hit you with 230 + lbs of hook and drop you like a bad habit

Yeah size matters, which is why we have weight classes. BUT, and this is a big but -- after a while the size difference means less for one simple reason.

As you get bigger your skull does not become thicker and stronger; nor does your jaw or your nose. Your pressure points, such as the temple, do not go away. Your loss of equalibrium when hit in the ear does not diminish.

Most importantly your spine and brain stem are not bigger and more able to absorb a greater blow; nor is there more cushion for your brain against the skull.

What does this mean? It means that a 200 pound Joe Louis or Jack Dempsey can KTFO a 240 pound Wladimir Klitschko or Rid**** Bowe or Lennox Lewis or Primo Carnera or Jess Williard.

Does size matter in heavyweights? Of course. A heavier man's jab will be harder and he will be able to take more body shots. In that the heavier man will have an advantage.

Will he automatically have a harder hook; will his "2" punch be harder? Maybe. But size doesn't equal strength. A 160lb Tiger Woods hit farther than 240lb golfers. Tiger is now 200lbs and he doesn't hit further today than he did at 160. Ron Guidry, a 1980s Yankee pitcher, threw harder than most, but he was bone skinny.

Size does matter, but with greater weight you have less foot-speed and less endurance. And once again, after a certain point greater size does not let you take more punches to the head.

[katsidis]

I gotta agree with New England, a good big beats a good little guy. Simple.

And lennox is easily the best 230+ fighter ever. Followed by the Klitschkos then I would have to seriously think to find more to populate the list.

[Holtol]

Interesting question. You are correct, there aren't that many really outstanding ones (much to the embarrassment of the, "Size Above All Else" brigade).

The benchmark, on their best nights, are Bowe & Lewis, & I doubt we'll see much argument on that. Neither Klitschko is as good as most fight fans rank them as being, & I do not see Vitali in particular as any better at all than Jesse Willard, who was a good fighter, as Vitali is a good fighter (with neither being great, but one being routinely under-sold, & the other routinely over-sold). However, the Klitschkos would deservingly be in the top-10 for such a list. Certainly, they are among the more accomplished, having co-oped the division (effectively, anyway) for several years, as putrid as it may be. Let's also hear it for the George Foreman of the 1990's --- he is unquestionably a top-10 candidate for the best HW's over 230, although you did technically say, "prime" Heavies, which Foreman was not. Not sure if you'd consider him eligible? I suppose he wouldn't be. Shame.

On their very best nights, I would take Bowe (1991-92) over Lewis (1997-02), personally. Most would disagree, in my experience, & that's plenty fine by me. Considering career achievements in addition to hypothetical head-to-head, Lewis is my pick as the best ever.

I agree after the first four or five the list of good 230 pound fighters gets fairly weak. And its true if size were such an advantage you think there would be at least 10 very good 230 + fighters to have fought in the last 150 years but there are not. Instead the list contains about the least talented fighters that you can list at any weight.



I can see the size argument in sports like wrestling or weightlifting but not boxing as much. Do big men take a better punch? Lewis and Wladimir show this not to be the case. Do big men necessarily punch harder? Vitali's power is good but he does not hit as hard as Tyson,Marciano or Louis much smaller men. And of course there are many other talents that size has no bearing on.

[joseph5620]

Who do you think the top 10 big heavyweights of all time are? The other night I was trying to think of some good heavy's that fought in their prime over 230 pounds I can't come up with many.

Lewis
Wladimir

in no order

Vitali
Bowe
Foreman in his comeback

[joseph5620]

I agree after the first four or five the list of good 230 pound fighters gets fairly weak. And its true if size were such an advantage you think there would be at least 10 very good 230 + fighters to have fought in the last 150 years but there are not. Instead the list contains about the least talented fighters that you can list at any weight.

Is Lewis really the best of the bunch? his best win being who? The Holyfeild win? I thought he lost this fight. The Mercer win? I thought this was very close to a draw. The Vitali win? has to be one of the worst victory's ever.

I can see the size argument in sports like wrestling or weightlifting but not boxing as much. Do big men take a better punch? Lewis and Wladimir show this not to be the case. Do big men necessarily punch harder? Vitali's power is good but he does not hit as hard as Tyson,Marciano or Louis much smaller men. And of course there are many other talents that size has no bearing on.

I can pick apart just about any fighter in history by nitpicking their victories as you did here. As far as Lewis-Vitlali, Lewis cut Vitlai's face to the bone with his punches. Whether you like it or not that's a part of boxing and Lewis won the fight. And the fact that you think Lewis actually lost to Holyfield(in either fight) speaks for itself.

[Holtol]

I can pick apart just about any fighter in history by nitpicking their victories as you did here. As far as Lewis-Vitlali, Lewis cut Vitlai's face to the bone with his punches. Whether you like it or not that's a part of boxing and Lewis won the fight. And the fact that you think Lewis actually lost to Holyfield(in either fight) speaks for itself.

Actually I think Lewis won the first fight with Holyfield and lost the second. As far as the Lewis Vitali fight I really don't know if it really hurt either legacy. My point really is not about Lewis anyway its the top 10 over 230 pounds. I feel if size were such an advantage there would be many great fighters at that weight over the last 150 years but there is not. Some near the top of the list are fairly good, care to name some at the bottom?

And Forman was not over 230 pounds in top form he was more like 220. But he did fight well even when he was overweight in his come back.

[joseph5620]

Actually I think Lewis won the first fight with Holyfield and lost the second. As far as the Lewis Vitali fight I really don't know if it really hurt either legacy. My point really is not about Lewis anyway its the top 10 over 230 pounds. I feel if size were such an advantage there would be many great fighters at that weight over the last 150 years but there is not. Some near the top of the list are fairly good, care to name some at the bottom?

And Forman was not over 230 pounds in top form he was more like 220. But he did fight well even when he was overweight in his come back.

I don't believe he was either. But he was still better than most fighters that have ever fought above 230 pounds. As far as size it does matter when the big man has skills. More times than not, the bigger guy with skills beats the smller guy with skills. Size alone does not matter if the fighter has no skills or limited skills like a Derrick Jefferson or Tye Fields. And the reason I mentioned Lewis was because you claimed he had no case to be considered the best over 230. I think the record says otherwise when you look at every fighter in history over 230 pounds. One thing I do notice is that some people think Holyfield fighting a little better in the second fight means he won the fight. I personally don't see how anybody could score the second fight for Holyfield.