Ranking Floyd Patterson Above Lennox Lewis, Can It Be Justified?

[joseph5620]

Muhammad Ali said,"Patterson was the best boxer he ever fought"

Ali can say what he wants . But that doesn't change the fact that Patterson's career in the ring as a heavyweight was not superior to Lennox Lewis.

[sonnyboyx2]

So how many times did the Euro title holder fight for the heavyweight title before then? Not nearly as many as you are implying I suppose. I don't need to watch a fight between Cooper and London. I saw and read about both when they were active. You know from our other discussions about Lewis and the K bros that I'm certainly not biased against foreign fighters. But both of those men (and especially London) weren't as good as the American contenders of that time. And outside of Ali it wasn't really a good time for US contenders, despite the rampant overrating of nostalgia here. No reason for me to watch obscure fights from 40-50 years ago that had no major effect on boxing history. I'm comfortable with my boxing knowledge. Brian London was a mediocre British contender who never won a big fight in his career. I'll be happy to supply a list (with no help from Box-rec) of heavyweights from then and now who would beat him.

well this say's it all about you and your knowledge of boxing history.. How many european champions fought for the heavyweight title - more than a dozen and against almost every heavyweight champion throughout history...

[sonnyboyx2]

I loved the bolded part.



Probably. Even now you're spinning because I also said Holyfield, Klitschko and Tua and I can't see Floyd beating those three on his best night. I don't see Floyd being competitive in the Lewis/Bowe/Holyfield/Tyson era. Remind me, when was the last time someone his size dominated the division?



When I brought this up before you claimed it wasn't a valid way of rating fighters. Yes I think he'd beat Chuvalo and the 1965 Machen. Ingo would have a puncher's chance but it's more likely he gets KO'd himself. I'd never write off Archie Moore, although beating Lewis at 43 would be a major ask. Bonavena would be hardest though he usually lost when he stepped up in class.



All I remember you saying of Rademacher was when you tried to pass him off as "unbeaten" and the Olympic champion. Yes I would criticise Lewis if he fought Savon or any other amateur with no pro experience.



Still denying denying the obvious, even after several people here have pointed it out to you. Everyone but you knows D'Amato kept Floyd wrapped in cotton wool and shielded him from the most dangerous contenders. Patterson only fought Liston after he bowed to public pressure and defied Cus. Check out the ratings when Floyd was champion:

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Th...yweight--1950s

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Th...yweight--1960s



Yes. Do you think beating Thomas Williams, Fernely Feliz, Mario Cawley, Jerry Ballard and a 40 year old Tony Tucker 5 years after you trash Lewis for facing him is worthy of #1 contender? Do you think the WBA are corrupt?



Mike Casey whose Tunney article you keep plugging is an IBRO member and rates Lewis in his top 20. Is he wrong? You didn't answer my question, if the IBRO are wrong about Lewis couldn't they also be wrong about Robinson?



You missed the point. I interpreted those fights the way you would if Lewis fought them. Mercer and Holyfield were not robberies. They were close fights. Chuvalo and Bonavena were close fights too which in your world makes them robberies when the guy you don't like wins. I'd love to know what you'd say if Lewis won the title from a 43 year old light-heavyweight or beat a guy who'd spent time in a mental institution. Actually, I already do.


Ruddock didn't look damaged goods in his previous two fights. No one was interested in him after the Tyson fights.



Tua was not the fattest challenger ever. Foreman weighed 259 when he fought Holyfield. Danny Williams weighed 270 when he fought Klitschko. And Tua was another no one wanted to fight. The fearsome John Ruiz lasted 19 seconds with him.



Tucker was a mandatory. He had recent wins over decent fighters like McCall and Norris and he made a great fist of it against Lewis. He had much more left than Dokes, who you think was a worthy challenger for Bowe.



What would you call George Chuvalo?



I never said he was.



I never said he was either.


Botha was a stop-gap between the Grant and Tua fights and he'd got his shot based on giving Tyson a tough fight.



Shane Mosley and James Toney were steroid users too. Does that discredit everyone who's ever fought them?



Strange that you haven't made a credible case for it. Your only argument is to tear down Lewis as much as you can so even in your world Floyd is only winning by default. If I asked you to make a case for Patterson without mentioning Lewis you wouldn't be able to.

Now answer my questions:

Do you think Rademacher, McNeeley, London and Harris were more deserving of a title shot than Liston, Machen, Folley and Williams?
Was Patterson the best heavyweight in the world from 1956-62?
Which heavyweights have a better record than Lewis from 1992-03?
Do you see Patterson beating Holyfield, Klitschko, Tua, Ruddock, Mercer and Tyson on the night they fought Lewis?
How would Chuvalo, Bonavena, Moore, Machen and Johansson fare against Holyfield, Klitschko, Tua, Ruddock, Mercer and Tyson?
How would Rademacher, McNeeley, Harris and London fare against McCall, Rahman, Morrison and Tucker?
Why do Floyd's best wins rate over Lewis'? See if you can make the case for Patterson's opponents rather than just trashing Lewis'.
Who would win if Lewis and Patterson fought?

My answers to your questions firstly.
1/. Yes they was more deserving if they was higher ranked and by those rankings you provided it looks as if they was higher ranked when Patterson fought them.

2/. Yes Patterson was the best heavyweight in the world during 56-62 he was the heavyweight champion.. are you going to now use "woulda, shoulda, coulda's to trash him?

3/. Bowe, Holyfield, Foreman, Moorer, Wlad, Tyson

4/. Yes

5/. most like win with drug testing

6/. Patterson's wins are vastly superior to Lewis wins as Pattersons opponents was "At The Top of their Game"

7/. Patterson - if McCall & Rahman can put Lewis lights out then Patterson would smash his lamp into a million pieces

[sonnyboyx2]

I would respectfully disagree with this all the way around my friend.

Which is why you deleted my post's which contained my case for ranking Patterson ahead of Lewis, yet left the posts alone which had no case whatsoever for Lewis being ranked greater than Patterson... i had a very strong inclination before i stated the case for Patterson that you would delete what i told about the career of Lennox Lewis, but if you can hairbrush over the facts that he was stripped of every belt for refusing to fight the No1 contenders then what is the point of trying to discuss boxing in this section when the moderator is a Lennox Lewis nuthugger, it beggars-belief that you cannot be consistent in your approach to boxing history and have to deny factual events so as to glorify your idol...

[Kid McCoy]

My answers to your questions firstly.
1/. Yes they was more deserving if they was higher ranked and by those rankings you provided it looks as if they was higher ranked when Patterson fought them.

1957... Machen #1, Folley #2. Patterson fought Rademacher and Jackson. At no point were London or Harris rated over Machen or Folley. McNeeley doesn't appear in those lists at all.

2/. Yes Patterson was the best heavyweight in the world during 56-62 he was the heavyweight champion.. are you going to now use "woulda, shoulda, coulda's to trash him?

Liston's wins over Machen, Folley, Williams, Valdez, Harris, DeJohn and Bethea plus KO'ing Patterson himself in 1 round twice puts him ahead of Patterson for that period. Can't be the best if you don't meet the best.

3/. Bowe, Holyfield, Foreman, Moorer, Wlad, Tyson

What did Bowe or Moorer do except beat Holyfield? What did Tyson do in the 90s? You think Foreman's only major win in that period, Moorer, betters Lewis' record? Wlad better than Lewis from 92-03? Against his best competition Holy lost 2/3 to Bowe, 1/2 to Moorer (both guys whose major claim to fame is beating Holyfield in the first place) and never beat Lewis. You may argue about being robbed in the Lewis rematch but the draw in the first was worse.

4/. Yes

How do you see Patterson vs Klitschko, Holyfield, Mercer, Tyson and Ruddock and Tua panning out?

5/. most like win with drug testing

Another excuse?

6/. Patterson's wins are vastly superior to Lewis wins as Pattersons opponents was "At The Top of their Game"

43 year old Moore at the top of his game? Machen at the top of his game? Was Chuvalo ever at the top of his game? Ingo was never in as good shape as in the first fight (his own fault although I doubt that reason would stop you slating a Lewis win).

7/. Patterson - if McCall & Rahman can put Lewis lights out then Patterson would smash his lamp into a million pieces

If Johansson could Patterson's lights out and an amateur Rademacher could drop Patterson then by that logic Lewis would blast him into orbit. Let's ignore that McCall and Rahman were huge powerful sluggers who would dwarf Patterson. When was the last time someone Patterson's size dominated the heavyweight division?

[sonnyboyx2]

1957... Machen #1, Folley #2. Patterson fought Rademacher and Jackson. At no point were London or Harris rated over Machen or Folley. McNeeley doesn't appear in those lists at all.



Liston's wins over Machen, Folley, Williams, Valdez, Harris, DeJohn and Bethea plus KO'ing Patterson himself in 1 round twice puts him ahead of Patterson for that period. Can't be the best if you don't meet the best.



What did Bowe or Moorer do except beat Holyfield? What did Tyson do in the 90s? You think Foreman's only major win in that period, Moorer, betters Lewis' record? Wlad better than Lewis from 92-03? Against his best competition Holy lost 2/3 to Bowe, 1/2 to Moorer (both guys whose major claim to fame is beating Holyfield in the first place) and never beat Lewis. You may argue about being robbed in the Lewis rematch but the draw in the first was worse.



How do you see Patterson vs Klitschko, Holyfield, Mercer, Tyson and Ruddock and Tua panning out?



Another excuse?



43 year old Moore at the top of his game? Machen at the top of his game? Was Chuvalo ever at the top of his game? Ingo was never in as good shape as in the first fight (his own fault although I doubt that reason would stop you slating a Lewis win).



If Johansson could Patterson's lights out and an amateur Rademacher could drop Patterson then by that logic Lewis would blast him into orbit. Let's ignore that McCall and Rahman were huge powerful sluggers who would dwarf Patterson. When was the last time someone Patterson's size dominated the heavyweight division?

you still have not made a case for Lewis legacy being greater than Pattersons legacy as champion.. Lewis won the title then had it stripped from him for refusing to fight the No1 contenders.. take a look at the ratings you supplied and see how many times Patterson fought the No1 contender instead of incorporating Liston, Tyson, Holyfield etc... make your case for Lewis being a greater champion than Patterson

[sonnyboyx2]

1957... Machen #1, Folley #2. Patterson fought Rademacher and Jackson. At no point were London or Harris rated over Machen or Folley. McNeeley doesn't appear in those lists at all.



Liston's wins over Machen, Folley, Williams, Valdez, Harris, DeJohn and Bethea plus KO'ing Patterson himself in 1 round twice puts him ahead of Patterson for that period. Can't be the best if you don't meet the best.



What did Bowe or Moorer do except beat Holyfield? What did Tyson do in the 90s? You think Foreman's only major win in that period, Moorer, betters Lewis' record? Wlad better than Lewis from 92-03? Against his best competition Holy lost 2/3 to Bowe, 1/2 to Moorer (both guys whose major claim to fame is beating Holyfield in the first place) and never beat Lewis. You may argue about being robbed in the Lewis rematch but the draw in the first was worse.



How do you see Patterson vs Klitschko, Holyfield, Mercer, Tyson and Ruddock and Tua panning out?



Another excuse?



43 year old Moore at the top of his game? Machen at the top of his game? Was Chuvalo ever at the top of his game? Ingo was never in as good shape as in the first fight (his own fault although I doubt that reason would stop you slating a Lewis win).



If Johansson could Patterson's lights out and an amateur Rademacher could drop Patterson then by that logic Lewis would blast him into orbit. Let's ignore that McCall and Rahman were huge powerful sluggers who would dwarf Patterson. When was the last time someone Patterson's size dominated the heavyweight division?

by your argument Nickolay Valuev would be the greatest heavyweight of all time coz he is bigger, taller, heavier lol

watch tonights fight between Pacquiao vs Margarito with Margarito set to enter the ring weighing 175+ and 5ins taller... height & size dont win fights, speed and skill win fights and those two factors lie with Floyd Patterson... i await your case for trashing Margarito tomorrow ...

[sonnyboyx2]

1957... Machen #1, Folley #2. Patterson fought Rademacher and Jackson. At no point were London or Harris rated over Machen or Folley. McNeeley doesn't appear in those lists at all.



Liston's wins over Machen, Folley, Williams, Valdez, Harris, DeJohn and Bethea plus KO'ing Patterson himself in 1 round twice puts him ahead of Patterson for that period. Can't be the best if you don't meet the best.



What did Bowe or Moorer do except beat Holyfield? What did Tyson do in the 90s? You think Foreman's only major win in that period, Moorer, betters Lewis' record? Wlad better than Lewis from 92-03? Against his best competition Holy lost 2/3 to Bowe, 1/2 to Moorer (both guys whose major claim to fame is beating Holyfield in the first place) and never beat Lewis. You may argue about being robbed in the Lewis rematch but the draw in the first was worse.



How do you see Patterson vs Klitschko, Holyfield, Mercer, Tyson and Ruddock and Tua panning out?



Another excuse?



43 year old Moore at the top of his game? Machen at the top of his game? Was Chuvalo ever at the top of his game? Ingo was never in as good shape as in the first fight (his own fault although I doubt that reason would stop you slating a Lewis win).



If Johansson could Patterson's lights out and an amateur Rademacher could drop Patterson then by that logic Lewis would blast him into orbit. Let's ignore that McCall and Rahman were huge powerful sluggers who would dwarf Patterson. When was the last time someone Patterson's size dominated the heavyweight division?

you keep asking how patterson would do against Lewis opponents but refused to answer when i asked how Lewis would do against Ali & Liston... LOL

[Jim Jeffries]

Well I haven't seen Patterson on anyone's top 10 ATG HW list.

Lennox Lewis, on the other hand ...................

[Scott9945]

you keep asking how patterson would do against Lewis opponents but refused to answer when i asked how Lewis would do against Ali & Liston... LOL

Is there any doubt that he would have performed better than Patterson did? You know, like actually win a round.