Ranking Floyd Patterson Above Lennox Lewis, Can It Be Justified?

[sonnyboyx2]

Floyd was only dominant was under D'Amato's careful matchmaking, which probably extended his reign by a few years. For someone who trashes Lewis for everything, I'm amazed how you excuse Patterson giving a title shot to someone who'd never had a pro fight. When he did start taking on top heavyweights his record is uneven and is 0-4 against his two best opponents. By your reckoning, Patterson must also be a better heavyweight than Liston since he won more title fights and also regained the title. No matter that Liston had better wins from 56-61 than Patterson did. Title fights skew the picture when the champion doesn't meet the best contenders. Sam Langford never won a title fight in his life but was much better than many who did.

It's hard to be dominant when top fighters avoid you, but Lewis still has good wins from that period over Ruddock, Mercer, Bruno, Golota, Briggs (by your reckoning the real champ after getting the decision against Foreman) etc which he capped off by unifying the division with Holyfield and then beating the likes of Tua and Klitschko. Yes I know you have an excuse for why Lewis doesn't deserve credit for any win in his career, but there's a reason why your opinion is a minority one. I could make similar excuses for all of Floyd's wins, but since I don't have a huge problem with Floyd like you do with Lewis, I won't bother.

I'd say Ruiz' mandatory position had a lot more to do with being a King fighter than anything he'd done in the ring. Look at that opponent list... Fernely Feliz, Mario Cawley, Ray Anis and a 40 year old Tony Tucker who you deride Lewis for fighting five years previously. Fought his way to the no.1 position? You have to be kidding. Lewis vacated his belt to face Grant, ranked #1 and seen as the next top American heavyweight. That was the big fight HBO were heavily hyping and he chose that over an obscure fighter who got to the top through King/WBA machinations. The same machinations that kept him the WBA's mandatory challenger for the next five years win, lose or draw.

I see you ignored my mention of the IBRO's rating. Not long ago you were telling everyone that Robinson had to be rated over Langford because experts like those at the IBRO said so. Well, the same experts think Lewis was a better heavyweight than Patterson.

Why must Patterson be better than Liston by my reckoning?
Are you claiming that Lennox Lewis was the dominant champion in the world 1992 to 1997?

are you claiming that Lewis was not stripped of his belts for refusing to fight the No1 contenders?

Patterson was 0-4 against Liston & Ali - are you claiming Lennox Lewis would have bettered Pattersons score against those two fighters on those nights?

Are you claiming John Ruiz should not have been the WBA No1 contender even tho he beat Evander Holyfield far easier than Lennox Lewis did even flooring Holyfield something Lewis never came near to doing in 24rds?

How am i ignoring the IBRO.. i have never used or read anything from the IBRO was the IBWOA i used and it is not a case of who was the better heavyweight like you claim, the Topic question asked "Can a case be made to rank Patterson as Greater than Lewis" and the answer is Yes as Patterson defended the undisputed title when champion against the No1 contenders whereas Lewis `refused`to defend that title on 3 occasions so was stripped of all 3 belts, are you claiming that Lewis was not stripped of those belts?

Are you claiming Ruddock, Golota, Bruno & Briggs the night they fought Lewis to be at the Top of their Game and greater than Bonavena, Chuvalo, Johansson & Machen the night they fought Patterson?


When did i excuse Patterson for fighting Rademacher?

if Lewis was to defend his title against Felix Savon would you trash him?

you claim you can make excuses for all Floyd Pattersons win - Then do it as i look forward to debating it with you.

in what way do i have as you claim a "Huge Problem with Lewis"?... is it because i dare to tell the truth about him?

Have you ever seen any of Lennox Lewis pro fights `Live`?

[Kid McCoy]

Why must Patterson be better than Liston by my reckoning?
Are you claiming that Lennox Lewis was the dominant champion in the world 1992 to 1997?

are you claiming that Lewis was not stripped of his belts for refusing to fight the No1 contenders?

Patterson was 0-4 against Liston & Ali - are you claiming Lennox Lewis would have bettered Pattersons score against those two fighters on those nights?

Are you claiming John Ruiz should not have been the WBA No1 contender even tho he beat Evander Holyfield far easier than Lennox Lewis did even flooring Holyfield something Lewis never came near to doing in 24rds?

How am i ignoring the IBRO.. i have never used or read anything from the IBRO was the IBWOA i used and it is not a case of who was the better heavyweight like you claim, the Topic question asked "Can a case be made to rank Patterson as Greater than Lewis" and the answer is Yes as Patterson defended the undisputed title when champion against the No1 contenders whereas Lewis `refused`to defend that title on 3 occasions so was stripped of all 3 belts, are you claiming that Lewis was not stripped of those belts?

Are you claiming Ruddock, Golota, Bruno & Briggs the night they fought Lewis to be at the Top of their Game and greater than Bonavena, Chuvalo, Johansson & Machen the night they fought Patterson?


When did i excuse Patterson for fighting Rademacher?

if Lewis was to defend his title against Felix Savon would you trash him?

you claim you can make excuses for all Floyd Pattersons win - Then do it as i look forward to debating it with you.

in what way do i have as you claim a "Huge Problem with Lewis"?... is it because i dare to tell the truth about him?

Have you ever seen any of Lennox Lewis pro fights `Live`?

You rate Patterson over Lewis because of who he fought (including opponents he didn't beat), winning the undisputed title twice and how many undisputed title fights he had. By that reckoning he's ahead of Liston too. You didn't like it when I asked how Lewis and Patterson would fare against the other's competition and now you want to mark Lewis down based on how you think he'd do against Ali and Liston?

Do you think Rademacher was a worthy title opponent? I don't even have to ask what you'd say if Lewis fought someone who'd never had a pro fight. Why do you trash Lewis for supposedly ducking loads of fighters yet not Patterson for not meeting worthy challengers when he was champion: Folley, Machen and Williams. London, Rademacher, McNeeley and Harris were not more deserving than them.

At the time Lewis dropped the belt Ruiz had done nothing to warrant the no.1 position other than sign with Don King. Strange that Holyfield was past it when Lewis beat him but an even older Holy was still good enough to beat the fearsome Ruiz.

The IBRO are the same boxing experts you think everyone should defer to in rating Robinson over Langford. The consensus of those historians rates Lewis 12th and Patterson not even an honourable mention. Do you think they're wrong? If they are then couldn't they also be wrong about Robinson and Langford?

Excuses for Patterson's best wins, Sonnyboy style: Machen was totally shot and unstable, Moore was a fat 43 year old light heavyweight, Johansson was very unfortunate, Chuvalo and Bonavena were robberies. Anyone can spin things into a negative like you do and the amusing thing is if Lewis fought them that's exactly how you'd see those fights. It's not a very good way of judging fighters though.

[Scott9945]

let me suggest that you get yourself a copy of the fight Brian London vs Henry Cooper 1964 which is both fighters in their prime and as good if not better than most domestic fights in recent years including
Benn v Eubank
Eubank vs Collins 1 & 2
Collins vs Benn
Sibson vs Kaylor

It might of been a terrific fight. I'm sure it was a big deal in the UK. But it wasn't at the highest level of heavyweight boxing by any standards. London wasn't very good. He lost pretty much every big fight he was ever in. Calling him a better title challenger than Akinwande or Grant is absurd. Just because Lennox had an easy time with them doesn't mean that Patterson would have too. Would you honestly give London even a faint chance of beating Lennox Lewis?.

[Joeyzagz]

Patterson beat the better quality of opponent and fought the better quality of opponent.. Both rank between 15-25 ATG list with Patterson ahead of Lewis

Lennox is top 5 in title defenses, resume' and overall record. Head to Head, hed physically overwhelm any former champ in history.

Too Big, Strong, smart and coordinated for Patterson.

[Greatest1942]

i have never claimed Patterson's resume "Completely overshadows Lewis" nor have i said he was a better heavyweight.. the Topic asked can a case be made to rank Patterson ahead of Lewis... Yes a case can be made.

Lewis i see in almost every Top 10 made by young posters as the No1, 2 or 3 All time greatest Heavyweight which is laughable.... Many boxing historian do not have Lewis in their Top 20 Heavyweight List and i have never seen him ranked higher than No15 as far as resume goes it is my opinion that Patterson's is better than Lewis resume and that Pattersons overall championship reign is superior in every way than what Lewis title reign was.

i was hoping that you would call into question some of the many things i said about the career of Lennox Lewis but you did not. so i take it that you are in agreement with everything i have stated in regard to the career of Lewis.

I am not in agreement with you on that, but Kid is aleady on it, and I don't want to barge into that.

The IBRO rates Lewis 12. IBRo consists of the best historians today. So its below 15.

And lastly Sonny Muhammad Ali after seeing Lewis destroy Tyson said he is the greatest. Don't provide this quotes its said on that time.

[sonnyboyx2]

You rate Patterson over Lewis because of who he fought (including opponents he didn't beat), winning the undisputed title twice and how many undisputed title fights he had. By that reckoning he's ahead of Liston too. You didn't like it when I asked how Lewis and Patterson would fare against the other's competition and now you want to mark Lewis down based on how you think he'd do against Ali and Liston?

Do you think Rademacher was a worthy title opponent? I don't even have to ask what you'd say if Lewis fought someone who'd never had a pro fight. Why do you trash Lewis for supposedly ducking loads of fighters yet not Patterson for not meeting worthy challengers when he was champion: Folley, Machen and Williams. London, Rademacher, McNeeley and Harris were not more deserving than them.

At the time Lewis dropped the belt Ruiz had done nothing to warrant the no.1 position other than sign with Don King. Strange that Holyfield was past it when Lewis beat him but an even older Holy was still good enough to beat the fearsome Ruiz.

The IBRO are the same boxing experts you think everyone should defer to in rating Robinson over Langford. The consensus of those historians rates Lewis 12th and Patterson not even an honourable mention. Do you think they're wrong? If they are then couldn't they also be wrong about Robinson and Langford?

Excuses for Patterson's best wins, Sonnyboy style: Machen was totally shot and unstable, Moore was a fat 43 year old light heavyweight, Johansson was very unfortunate, Chuvalo and Bonavena were robberies. Anyone can spin things into a negative like you do and the amusing thing is if Lewis fought them that's exactly how you'd see those fights. It's not a very good way of judging fighters though.

You failed to answer every single question i asked you and are now trying to twist it to suit your agenda but i am cool with that, we will start again and do it your way.

Do you think Mercer, Golota, Bruno, Ruddock & Briggs who you say are Lewis best victories would all beat Floyd Patterson?

Do you think Lewis would beat Bonavena, Chuvalo, Machen, Johansson & Moore who are Patterson's best career wins?

You keep asking about Rademacher and i keep answering you but you wont accept my answer so here it is once again, "Would you call Lewis if he was to face Felix Savon for the world title"?

you claim Patterson ducked challengers - show me proof of what you claim, show me when it was that Patterson ducked Williams, Folley & Machen for his world title or is that just another `made-up` lame excuse you have concocted up.

Are you saying that the WBA are corrupt in them having John Ruiz as their No1 contender?

IBRO i have never used although you keep claiming i have, i use the IBWOA who do not have Lewis in their Top 20.

Do you think Pattersons fights over Chuvalo & Bonavena was robberies?... your are incorrect in describing Pattersons fights like that and claiming i do the same with Lewis's, i do not have a problem with any of Lewis fights only Lewis opponents do i have the problem with, so lets look at a few:
Ruddock - are you claiming he was not Damaged Goods?
Tua - are you claiming he was not the fattest man to fight for the title?
Tucker - are you claiming he was not a `Shot Junkie`?
McCall & Rahman - are you claiming they are not journeymen?
McCall (2) - are you claiming he was in top condition to be fighting for a world title?
Jackson - are you claiming him to be a worthy challenger for the heavyweight title?
Botha - are you claiming him to be a worthy challenger and not a steroid abuser?
Morrison - are you claiming he was not a steroid abuser?

So come on Kid McCoy lets here your response to these questions which you avoid just like you have avoided every question put to you.... there is no case for Lewis being ranked ahead of Floyd Patterson, you know it and i know it.

[sonnyboyx2]

It might of been a terrific fight. I'm sure it was a big deal in the UK. But it wasn't at the highest level of heavyweight boxing by any standards. London wasn't very good. He lost pretty much every big fight he was ever in. Calling him a better title challenger than Akinwande or Grant is absurd. Just because Lennox had an easy time with them doesn't mean that Patterson would have too. Would you honestly give London even a faint chance of beating Lennox Lewis?.

Are you serious... Cooper vs London 1964 was for the British, European & Commonwealth titles which usually gave the winner a guaranteed fight for the undisputed championship of the world back in those days, i suggested you watch that fight to give you a better idea of how good Brian London was but it is obvious you have very little interest and are unwilling to broaden your knowledge of fighters from the past and stick to Boxrec for everything to need to know..

[Kid McCoy]

You failed to answer every single question i asked you and are now trying to twist it to suit your agenda but i am cool with that, we will start again and do it your way.

I loved the bolded part.

Do you think Mercer, Golota, Bruno, Ruddock & Briggs who you say are Lewis best victories would all beat Floyd Patterson?

Probably. Even now you're spinning because I also said Holyfield, Klitschko and Tua and I can't see Floyd beating those three on his best night. I don't see Floyd being competitive in the Lewis/Bowe/Holyfield/Tyson era. Remind me, when was the last time someone his size dominated the division?

Do you think Lewis would beat Bonavena, Chuvalo, Machen, Johansson & Moore who are Patterson's best career wins?

When I brought this up before you claimed it wasn't a valid way of rating fighters. Yes I think he'd beat Chuvalo and the 1965 Machen. Ingo would have a puncher's chance but it's more likely he gets KO'd himself. I'd never write off Archie Moore, although beating Lewis at 43 would be a major ask. Bonavena would be hardest though he usually lost when he stepped up in class.

You keep asking about Rademacher and i keep answering you but you wont accept my answer so here it is once again, "Would you call Lewis if he was to face Felix Savon for the world title"?

All I remember you saying of Rademacher was when you tried to pass him off as "unbeaten" and the Olympic champion. Yes I would criticise Lewis if he fought Savon or any other amateur with no pro experience.

you claim Patterson ducked challengers - show me proof of what you claim, show me when it was that Patterson ducked Williams, Folley & Machen for his world title or is that just another `made-up` lame excuse you have concocted up.

Still denying denying the obvious, even after several people here have pointed it out to you. Everyone but you knows D'Amato kept Floyd wrapped in cotton wool and shielded him from the most dangerous contenders. Patterson only fought Liston after he bowed to public pressure and defied Cus. Check out the ratings when Floyd was champion:

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Th...yweight--1950s

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Th...yweight--1960s

Are you saying that the WBA are corrupt in them having John Ruiz as their No1 contender?

Yes. Do you think beating Thomas Williams, Fernely Feliz, Mario Cawley, Jerry Ballard and a 40 year old Tony Tucker 5 years after you trash Lewis for facing him is worthy of #1 contender? Do you think the WBA are corrupt?

IBRO i have never used although you keep claiming i have, i use the IBWOA who do not have Lewis in their Top 20.

Mike Casey whose Tunney article you keep plugging is an IBRO member and rates Lewis in his top 20. Is he wrong? You didn't answer my question, if the IBRO are wrong about Lewis couldn't they also be wrong about Robinson?

Do you think Pattersons fights over Chuvalo & Bonavena was robberies?... your are incorrect in describing Pattersons fights like that and claiming i do the same with Lewis's, i do not have a problem with any of Lewis fights only Lewis opponents do i have the problem with, so lets look at a few:

You missed the point. I interpreted those fights the way you would if Lewis fought them. Mercer and Holyfield were not robberies. They were close fights. Chuvalo and Bonavena were close fights too which in your world makes them robberies when the guy you don't like wins. I'd love to know what you'd say if Lewis won the title from a 43 year old light-heavyweight or beat a guy who'd spent time in a mental institution. Actually, I already do.

Ruddock - are you claiming he was not Damaged Goods?

Ruddock didn't look damaged goods in his previous two fights. No one was interested in him after the Tyson fights.

Tua - are you claiming he was not the fattest man to fight for the title?

Tua was not the fattest challenger ever. Foreman weighed 259 when he fought Holyfield. Danny Williams weighed 270 when he fought Klitschko. And Tua was another no one wanted to fight. The fearsome John Ruiz lasted 19 seconds with him.

Tucker - are you claiming he was not a `Shot Junkie`?

Tucker was a mandatory. He had recent wins over decent fighters like McCall and Norris and he made a great fist of it against Lewis. He had much more left than Dokes, who you think was a worthy challenger for Bowe.

McCall & Rahman - are you claiming they are not journeymen?

What would you call George Chuvalo?

McCall (2) - are you claiming he was in top condition to be fighting for a world title?

I never said he was.

Jackson - are you claiming him to be a worthy challenger for the heavyweight title?

I never said he was either.

Botha - are you claiming him to be a worthy challenger and not a steroid abuser?

Botha was a stop-gap between the Grant and Tua fights and he'd got his shot based on giving Tyson a tough fight.

Morrison - are you claiming he was not a steroid abuser?

Shane Mosley and James Toney were steroid users too. Does that discredit everyone who's ever fought them?

So come on Kid McCoy lets here your response to these questions which you avoid just like you have avoided every question put to you.... there is no case for Lewis being ranked ahead of Floyd Patterson, you know it and i know it.

Strange that you haven't made a credible case for it. Your only argument is to tear down Lewis as much as you can so even in your world Floyd is only winning by default. If I asked you to make a case for Patterson without mentioning Lewis you wouldn't be able to.

Now answer my questions:

Do you think Rademacher, McNeeley, London and Harris were more deserving of a title shot than Liston, Machen, Folley and Williams?
Was Patterson the best heavyweight in the world from 1956-62?
Which heavyweights have a better record than Lewis from 1992-03?
Do you see Patterson beating Holyfield, Klitschko, Tua, Ruddock, Mercer and Tyson on the night they fought Lewis?
How would Chuvalo, Bonavena, Moore, Machen and Johansson fare against Holyfield, Klitschko, Tua, Ruddock, Mercer and Tyson?
How would Rademacher, McNeeley, Harris and London fare against McCall, Rahman, Morrison and Tucker?
Why do Floyd's best wins rate over Lewis'? See if you can make the case for Patterson's opponents rather than just trashing Lewis'.
Who would win if Lewis and Patterson fought?

[Tiozzo]

Making series of such threads, can it be justified ?

[Scott9945]

Are you serious... Cooper vs London 1964 was for the British, European & Commonwealth titles which usually gave the winner a guaranteed fight for the undisputed championship of the world back in those days, i suggested you watch that fight to give you a better idea of how good Brian London was but it is obvious you have very little interest and are unwilling to broaden your knowledge of fighters from the past and stick to Boxrec for everything to need to know..

So how many times did the Euro title holder fight for the heavyweight title before then? Not nearly as many as you are implying I suppose. I don't need to watch a fight between Cooper and London. I saw and read about both when they were active. You know from our other discussions about Lewis and the K bros that I'm certainly not biased against foreign fighters. But both of those men (and especially London) weren't as good as the American contenders of that time. And outside of Ali it wasn't really a good time for US contenders, despite the rampant overrating of nostalgia here. No reason for me to watch obscure fights from 40-50 years ago that had no major effect on boxing history. I'm comfortable with my boxing knowledge. Brian London was a mediocre British contender who never won a big fight in his career. I'll be happy to supply a list (with no help from Box-rec) of heavyweights from then and now who would beat him.