What Is The Biggest Duck Of All Time?

[Greatest1942]

"In his c1910 French biography ‘Mes Combats’ Johnson had this to say about their right: "I found him (Langford) one of the toughest adversaries I ever met in the ring. I weighed 190 pounds and Langford only 138. In the second round the little negro hit me on the jaw with a terrible right hand and I fell as if upended (or blown away) by a cannon ball. In all my pugilistic career, not before and not afterwards, have I received a blow that struck me with such force. It was all I could do just to get back on my feet just as the referee was about to count "Ten!" I made it, but I assure you that I felt the effects of that punch for the rest of the fight. I recovered but I would have to take my hat off to him if I hadn't had so much science at my comment. In the fifteenth round I was declared the winner on points."

Johnson lied in his autobiography? What I can do such a fool sonny such a fool? Lies in his own autobiography

Please now read up and stop talking **** about a ATG great. don't think I am doing this because its Sam Langford, if you tell this kind of lies aagainst any great I will do this. In the Langford-Ketchel thread, in another Sam thread, you tell nothing but lies. So I have to come into the picture, thinking some young kid might actually believe you, but I think everyone knows you are a , lets leave at that.

[Greatest1942]

You missed the part

A well known sporting columnist and boxing writer in New York published in 1907 that Philadelphia Jack O-Brien, Tommy Burns, Al Kauffman, Stanley Ketchel and Jack Johnson had agreed not to entertain any proposition coming from Langford. Langford at that time was called “the Mankiller.” The boxers named were accused of trying to freeze the Boston Tar Baby out of the fight game. He was putting on weight, and was becoming more and more a menace.


What you miss was that he hammered a 156 lbs version...by the way hang on. Situations changed post 1908, Sam became campaigning fully at heavy and Johnson ran like a coward.

read now dumbo

During Sam’s visit to London, he told Jimmy Butler, “I’m not the champ. Jack Johnson is that guy and he keeps dodging me.”

Butler subsequently wrote: “That, as a matter of fact, was the plain and unvarnished truth. Johnson did dodge a meeting with the Boston Tar Baby after their terrific clash at Chelsea, Massachusetts.

“Johnson just sc****d home on points after fifteen rounds, but I think he learned enough to realise that if he ever got into the same ring with Langford again, those gigantic arms and shoulders would make short work of sweeping him off his throne.”
Well, there is little doubt that Johnson did indeed steer a wide berth of Langford after their one and only confrontation. But did Sam really give Jack such a close call in that Chelsea fight? The rumour persisted for years that Langford had even decked Papa Jack, which offended Johnson greatly and prompted him to issue a series of vehement denials.


When he first won the title Johnson expressed a willingness to fight all comers, but when Langford first put for a challenge in 1909, Johnson had a slight change of mind...

Promoters tried matching them up right after Johnson was finished his business with Jeffries in 1910, the fight was negotiated in London, yet Johnson changed his mind and refused the $20,000 offered to him (an offer was also presented to Johnson in 1914).

In 1911, Johnson signed with Hugh McIntosh and made a big claim that he would fight anybody in the world for a purse of $30,000. A couple of months later (in early 1912) that amount was offered to him to fight Langford in Australia, and yet again, Johnson refused to sign.

A couple of months after that, McIntosh eager to seal the deal offered Johnson $40,000 to fight Langford in Australia, which of course he wouldn't take...well, Johnson chickened out again.

A large sum of money (I've heard from $60,000 to $100,000) was offered to Johnson in late 1912/early 1913 to defend his title three times in Australia, with the trio Langford, McVey, and Jeannette as the challengers. Again, you know the story.He chickened out again.

And so on and forth...MANY different offers were presented to Johnson to fight Langford in both Australia, England and even France during the end of his reign, and Johnson refused every single one of them...It couldn't have been a money issue either, because the promoters met and even exceeded his financial demands. It's also worth noting that the $30,000 that Johnson asked for/demanded in 1911 was the exact purse he recieved when he lost his title to Willard.

Nobody will pay to see two black men fight for the title,” Johnson rationalized. However, when Johnson grew weary of Australian boxing promoter Hugh “Huge Deal”’ McIntosh’s efforts to arrange a match with Langford, he admitted that he had no wish to face Langford again. “I don’t want to fight that little smoke,” said Johnson. “He’s got a chance to win against anyone in the world. I’m the first black champion and I’m going to be the last.”---> very confident huh?

Years later, Johnson confided to New England Sports Museum trustee Kevin Aylwood, “Sam Langford was the toughest little son of a ***** that ever lived.”

"When I would get Johnson near the point of a match with Langford he would stall me off with some excuse. Finally I made things so hot for Johnson that he admitted to me that Langford was too tough a game to tackle and he passed the little fellow up."
Australian promoter, Hugh D. McIntosh

I would like other posters (excluding Sonny) to tell me what they think of this.

[Greatest1942]

Please now read up and stop talking **** about a ATG great. don't think I am doing this because its Sam Langford, if you tell this kind of lies aagainst any great I will do this. In the Langford-Ketchel thread, in another Sam thread, you tell nothing but lies. So I have to come into the picture, thinking some young kid might actually believe you, but I think everyone knows you are a , lets leave at that.

another for you , from a contemporary great see what he thinks

Famous Boston Tar Baby is “Uncrowned King of Pugilism” Says Corbett
By James J. Corbett (Atlanta Georgian)
Whenever “marvels of the prize ring” are discussed it is well not to overlook Sam Langford.
For there is a fighter greater than many of the heralded greatest; a ringman who might have been a world’s champion in several different divisions if the chance to fight the champion only had come to him. But it was denied.
Langford is 36 now – and still fighting. That’s a remarkable record in itself. But the fact that he has been battling since 1902 – more than 21 fighting years – and has fought at least 15 fights a year through more than two decades makes his career even more amazing.
I don’t know who holds the record for longest ring activity – but I am sure that before Langford hangs up his gloves for the last time the championship will be his beyond dispute. For Langford today is fighting oftener than he did in his prime and seems good for several more seasons of fistic warfare.
If Langford had trained, or lived according to the real rules of an athlete, there might be an explanation for that in his long ring life. But the strange thing about the “Boston Tar Baby” is that he perhaps hasn’t done an hour of training in five years.

He eats what he wants, drinks what he wants and in some ways violates the most vital rules of a boxer. On one occasion Langford ate six huge pieces of watermelon and five minutes later jumped into the ring for a fight. Another time he ate a huge meal, which was sent to this dressing room.
He was just finishing desert when he was called into action – and then knocked out his man in the second round.
Langford will always appeal to me as one of the most terrific hitters that ever lived. He could put more power into his body drives than any man I ever saw in a prize ring. And when Langford hit the other man’s chin with an overhand right, which carried serious intent back of it, that man fell, to rise no more until the echo of the count of “ten” had long died away.
Langford’s record for some years hasn’t included many knockouts. And it has listed some defeats. But always will there be a su****ion that Sam never really let loose in those fights – that he purposely suffered defeat so as to insure a return match which meant added revenue.
Langford started his career as a bantam. He was 5 feet 6 inches tall then. He is no taller now. But through the years he has added about 75 pounds to his frame – and 40 of it is fat. Yet Langford, packing all that excess bulk, has made human punching bags out of every foeman he willed to punish.
He knocked out the giant Harry Wills twice. He put away Joe Jeannette, Bill Tate, Jim Flynn, Jim Johnson and a hundred others. He beat Jack Johnson so badly in their fight years ago that when Johnson was champion and Langford offered to fight him without a dollar, for his end of the purse, Johnson refused. (NOTE: While Langford may have landed some heavy blows against Johnson in their only fight, it was only he, as a 20-year old who had not yet physically matured, and was outweighed by 35- 40 pounds or so that suffered a beating.)
Langford will win no titles. His real fighting days are done. But surely he can claim the title of “Uncrowned King of Pugilism.”

[sonnyboyx2]

He beat Jack Johnson so badly in their fight years ago that when Johnson was champion and Langford offered to fight him without a dollar, for his end of the purse, Johnson refused.

The above sentence is garbage and cannot be further from the truth as you know as well as i know that Johnson hammered him not him hammer Johnson

[sonnyboyx2]

“Johnson just sc****d home on points after fifteen rounds, (Rubbish)

[sonnyboyx2]

Here goes, you forgot to add this so i will post it up for you:


In an open letter to The Ring magazine in 1934, Johnson wrote: “I have accounts of the fight from my dear old friend, Tad (legendary sports writer and cartoonist Tad Dorgan) which show how badly Sam Langford was whipped. Please note the account of our fifteen-round fight at Chelsea, Mass., which I am enclosing. The report shows that I gave poor Sam such a severe trimming that he had to find his way into a hospital to recuperate. The records of that fight prove that statement to be correct.

[Greatest1942]

Here goes, you forgot to add this so i will post it up for you:


In an open letter to The Ring magazine in 1934, Johnson wrote: “I have accounts of the fight from my dear old friend, Tad (legendary sports writer and cartoonist Tad Dorgan) which show how badly Sam Langford was whipped. Please note the account of our fifteen-round fight at Chelsea, Mass., which I am enclosing. The report shows that I gave poor Sam such a severe trimming that he had to find his way into a hospital to recuperate. The records of that fight prove that statement to be correct.

Ohhh I was posting that stuff too. and what about his autobiography? So he lies here or lies there? Liar either way. No doubt you love him. My posts were not intended to prove he won or lost the fight. But that he blatantly ducked Sam Langford...read everything before you post...much of this you never read. Jack even when offered more money to face Sam than he ever got ducked him...Liar and coward he always was...you like him too don't you Sonny?

[sonnyboyx2]

i have never ever said i dont like Langford nor have i said that he was not a truely incredible fighter, all i have said is that P4P Ray Robinson is universally recognized as No1.

Here is an interesting little tidbit for you:

“Langford was among the five fighters to whom I gave the worst beatings in all my career. This quintet was composed of Jim Jeffries, Tommy Burns, Sam Langford, Sailor Burke and Frank Childs.”

To his dying day in 1972, Ring editor Nat Fleischer maintained that Jack Johnson was the greatest of all the heavyweights. Understandably, Nat was eager to get to the bottom of the Johnson-Langford controversy. In his 1958 book, ’50 Years at Ringside’, Fleischer produced the testimony of his father-in-law, Dad Phillips, who allegedly saw the fight.

Said Phillips: “Jack Johnson decisively defeated Sam Langford. He was complete master of the situation. Jack so far outclassed Langford that for a time, until he purposely eased up on his onslaughts, the fight was one-sided.

“Langford was dropped twice for counts of nine, and he would have been out the first time if referee Martin Flaherty had not slowed up the count. At the end of the fight, Sam had to be taken to a hospital.

“As for Langford dropping Johnson, that’s absurd. Why, he couldn’t land on Jack.”
Sam’s alleged knockdown of Jack continued to bug Nat Fleischer, who had to find the truth from the nearest equivalent of the horse’s mouth. Nat cornered Langford’s former manager Joe Woodman and good-naturedly demanded the true version of events.
According to Fleischer, this was Woodman’s response: “You’ve got me, Nat. Langford never dropped Johnson. But I was anxious to fix up another fight between the two and, knowing Jack’s pride, I invented the story of that knockdown to goad him into the ring against Sam again.

“Although it never happened, all the newspapermen believed it. They just never took the trouble to investigate. That knockdown was just a publicity gimmick.”

[BattlingNelson]

I guess most knew about Johnson and Langford but thanks to greatest1942 for all the good stuff he put forth. Nice read indeed.




One of the notable ducks in history is the story of Charly Burley who's one of the best fighters never to fight for a championship. Among those who avoided him was MW champions Tony Zale and Rocky Graziano. Other notable greats who avoided him was Ray Robinson, Jake Lamotta and Billy Conn.

I'm sure some more into this timeperiod can tell who was the major 'ducker' of Burleys.


Also Ad Wolgast and partially Bat Nelson was ducking Packey Macfarland who had one of the best records for a fighter never getting a title shot. He was arguably a little to heavy for his own good meaning that he was more of a 140 lb'er than a LW which was to bad for him as the junior welterweight division didnt exist in those days.


Further ducks noteworthy is those already mentioned in Bowe-Lewis, Corro-Hagler. I might add Mashashi Kudu ducking Ayub Kalule for several years but they did end up fighting.

Lewis retiring instead of fight Vitali again is another example of him ducking. Im a fan of Lewis, but to me when you say before a fight that you are like wine and are getting better with age and talk about a lot of future fights you want and thena re in a 6 round blood bath and win by a cut while losing the fight and retire instead of a rematch, thats a big duck.

However, the biggest ducker of all time is clearly Sven Ottke.

Who did Ottke duck to be worthy of the title of worst ducker of all time?

[GJC]

I would like other posters (excluding Sonny) to tell me what they think of this.

I think Johnson did duck Langford and there was a view for a few years that based on this that Langford had been robbed in their fight. The more I have read about this though leads me to believe that Johnson did win handily. Johnson would have been at his peak then and Langford would have been greener. Personally as highly as I rate Langford and it is very highly I do have my doubts as to whether he could have beaten Johnson or Dempsey. Doesn't make him any less a great though, he was a middleweight who couldn't imo beat a couple of atg HWs although the list of fighters he did beat is jaw dropping.
Think as far as Johnson and Dempsey not fighting/ducking him it comes down to the old risk v reward scenario. Personally I think Langford's legend is best served by them not fighting him