Greb, Langford, p4p and lack of film

[BennyST]

the less he trains the more he relys on his natural talents.....the more he relys on his natural talents the more it shows that there are no natural talents only what you gain from training.

you dont think 100+ amature fights and having been training since he was like 10 had anything to do with jones's natural talents? nah course not he allways had speed power and reflexes...born with it, Gifts, right?

Have you read anything I wrote? Or are you just being deliberately contrary?

Let me say it once more; A skill is something you learn to better apply the natural talents you have.

Some people have more talent than others and some people learn more than others.

[Spartacus Sully]

Let me say it once more; A skill is something you learn to better apply the natural talents you have.

hows this instead of skills tallents abilities or any of that jazz we call them Attributes.

the skill lies with in knowing how to improve those attributes. so while speed is only an attribute of a person incredible speed is a clear sign of skill in improving speed.

so while having incredible speed is not a skill, accquiring incredible speed through training is a skill the skill of knowing how to learn and not just the skill of knowing how to learn but also showing great gross motor skills and fine motor skills through the flow of technique required for great speed.

speed power reflexes hand eye cordination may not be skills but accquireing great quan****** of them definately requires skill.

[Sugarj]

hows this instead of skills tallents abilities or any of that jazz we call them Attributes.

the skill lies with in knowing how to improve those attributes. so while speed is only an attribute of a person incredible speed is a clear sign of skill in improving speed.

so while having incredible speed is not a skill, accquiring incredible speed through training is a skill the skill of knowing how to learn and not just the skill of knowing how to learn but also showing great gross motor skills and fine motor skills through the flow of technique required for great speed.

speed power reflexes hand eye cordination may not be skills but accquireing great quan****** of them definately requires skill.

Agreed, and landing a series of rapid blows in combination is certainly a skill irrespective of a fighter's natural handspeed.

Thats why, even when fighters like Roy Jones jnr who still have fast hands (as evidenced in the Lacy fight) appear not to be able to land combinations as they once did......it is actually an errosion of skill, not attribute.

[Spartacus Sully]

it is actually an errosion of skill, not attribute.

ehhh id say theres attributes and skills involved in landing multiple shots quickly. timing distance hand eye cordination and reflexes jsut a few to say its just skills or just attributes would be alittle to general where as you can say his speed has remained the same but other attributes like his hand eye cordination has clearly erroded along with his skills in accuracy distance and timing.

[Sugarj]

ehhh id say theres attributes and skills involved in landing multiple shots quickly. timing distance hand eye cordination and reflexes jsut a few to say its just skills or just attributes would be alittle to general where as you can say his speed has remained the same but other attributes like his hand eye cordination has clearly erroded along with his skills in accuracy distance and timing.

We are in full agreement. I thought my previous post was quite clear.

While the older Roy Jones still seems to possess the 'attribute' of having fast hands, he no longer seems to have the 'skills' to land the fantastic combinations that he once did.

[Sugarj]

Just clicked, you feel that an errosion of hand eye coordination is rather more attribute based than skill based.

I suppose that sort of thing could be discussed for hours.

Speed as an attribute (like in a game of Top Trumps) is fairly easy to classify as an attribute.

Things like hand/eye coordination seem to be the area where skills and attributes almost merge.

I'll give you a slightly amusing.....but true non boxing example. As a bet a couple of months ago, my brother challenged me to learn to juggle three balls (the 3 ball cascade), he said that he had tried in vain but never succeeded to do this.

I set out to learn and perfect this.........and I did!

Now there was nothing ever wrong with my hand eye coordination, but for a few nights I was throwing tangerines all over my front room.

Now, have I improved my attribute of hand eye coordination OR learnt the skill of juggling?

I'd argue rather more skills here, same with landing rapid combinations.

There probably isn't much wrong with Jones Jnr's hand eye coordination in a neurological sense. But his skills have declined far more.

[Spartacus Sully]

Just clicked, you feel that an errosion of hand eye coordination is rather more attribute based than skill based.

I suppose that sort of thing could be discussed for hours.

Speed as an attribute (like in a game of Top Trumps) is fairly easy to classify as an attribute.

Things like hand/eye coordination seem to be the area where skills and attributes almost merge.

I'll give you a slightly amusing.....but true non boxing example. As a bet a couple of months ago, my brother challenged me to learn to juggle three balls (the 3 ball cascade), he said that he had tried in vain but never succeeded to do this.

I set out to learn and perfect this.........and I did!

Now there was nothing ever wrong with my hand eye coordination, but for a few nights I was throwing tangerines all over my front room.

Now, have I improved my attribute of hand eye coordination OR learnt the skill of juggling?

I'd argue rather more skills here, same with landing rapid combinations.

There probably isn't much wrong with Jones Jnr's hand eye coordination in a neurological sense. But his skills have declined far more.

Id say hand eye coordination is a measurement of your fine motor skills in relation to what you see. as you improve your fine motor skills in relation to your eyes you improve your hand eye coordination.

id say you improved your fine motor skills along with improving your hand eye coordination.

id also say you improved your reflexes. as reflex is an invoulentary movement you have to train your self to ddo the correct involuntary movement so when the fruit lands in your hand your trained to throw it back in the air instead of grabbing on to it as your inital reflexes might have you do when catching something.

[Sugarj]

Id say hand eye coordination is a measurement of your fine motor skills in relation to what you see. as you improve your fine motor skills in relation to your eyes you improve your hand eye coordination.

id say you improved your fine motor skills along with improving your hand eye coordination.

id also say you improved your reflexes. as reflex is an invoulentary movement you have to train your self to ddo the correct involuntary movement so when the fruit lands in your hand your trained to throw it back in the air instead of grabbing on to it as your inital reflexes might have you do when catching something.

And yet, learning to juggle has not helped my boxing, my skipping, my speedball work, my guitar playing, drumming.....or even my typing. All which are very much hand/eye/reflexes or motor skill related.

So have I improved these attributes (hand/eye/reflexes) or just gained a new skill?

I'm not fully disagreeing...........I just think its a topic that could be debated forever.

Laters fella.

[Greatest1942]

Have you read anything I wrote? Or are you just being deliberately contrary?

Let me say it once more; A skill is something you learn to better apply the natural talents you have.

Some people have more talent than others and some people learn more than others.

To put matters into perspective I will say Ali had amazing reflexes, and it was something that was natural to him .

Of course he practiced it and got good at it. But as he became older his reflexes diminshed. That can be seen in the Ali of 1970's who was much more hittable..Ali never learnt the skills for proper defense (parrying,not leaning away from jabs) but his reflexes made up for it.As he grew older and slower it caught up with him.

His reflex and speed were gifts (which he no doubt honed for the better). But parrying, slipping punches, countering are skills that are to be acquired.

To quit my babbling natural gifts are honed for the better, where as boxing skills like parrying ,slipping, countering etc are learnt.

[sonnyboyx2]

While you are right about this point, I would like to state that there are some boxers who although might not look so effective will be great. Burley didn't look great in film but he was mighty effective and was ducked like the plague. In footage many don't see the greatness, but wasn't he good? Even if you see how good he was he will never look as good as Sugar Ray.

Besides Robinson never fought guys giving 40-50 pounds to them or never fought light heavy's or heavy's as middleweight.

I sincerely believe Sam beat more ATG's at different weights than Robinson did and if there was more footage of him it would have been great. Same with Greb, beating Tunney while giving up height, weight , reach is not a mean thing. Greb beat heavy weights while weighing as middle.

Greb beat Tunney on Tunney's worst ever night:

As Gene would recall in later years, the problems started in the run-up to the fight. “Whilst training for the Greb match, which took place just four months after the Battling Levinsky match, I had the worst possible kind of luck. My left eyebrow was opened and both hands were sorely injured. I had a partial reappearance of the old left elbow trouble, which prevented my using a left jab. Dr Robert J Shea, a close friend who took care of me during my training, thought that a hypodermic injection of adrenaline chloride over the left eye would prevent bleeding when the cut was re-opened by Greb. At my request he injected a hypodermic solution of novocaine into the knuckles of both hands as well. We locked the dressing room door during this performance.

“George Engle, Greb’s manager, wanting to watch the bandages being put on, came over to my dressing room and found the door bolted. He shouted and ******. We could not allow him in until the doctor had finished his work. Getting in finally, he insisted that I remove all the bandages so that he could see whether I had any unlawful substance under them. I refused. He made an awful squawk, ranting in and out of the room. I became angry. Eventually I realised Engle was only trying to protect his fighter, and if I let it get my goat that was my hard luck. Moreover, his not being allowed into the dressing room made the situation look su****ious. I unwound the bandages from my hands and satisfied George that all was well.”

All was not well, however. Tunney’s problems had just begun and the doctor’s injections only served to endanger Gene even more when the perpetual motion machine that was Harry Greb started firing. Tunney quickly stumbled into a nightmare, as he would recall in typically clinical detail: “In the first exchange in the first round, I sustained a double fracture of the nose, which bled continually until the finish. Toward the end of the first round, my left eyebrow was laid open four inches. I am convinced that the adrenaline solution that had been injected so softened the tissue that the first blow or butt I received cut the flesh right to the bone.

“In the third round another cut over the right eye left me looking through a red film. For the best part of twelve rounds, I saw this red phantom-like form dancing before me. I had provided myself with a fifty per cent mixture of brandy and orange juice to take between rounds in the event I became weak from loss of blood. I had never taken anything during a fight up to that time. Nor did I ever again.

“It is impossible to describe the bloodiness of this fight. My seconds were unable to stop either the bleeding from the cut over my left eye, which involved a severed artery, or the bleeding consequent to the nose fractures. Doc Bagley, who was my chief second, made futile attempts to congeal the nose bleeding by pouring adrenaline into his hand and having me snuff it up my nose. This I did round after round. The adrenaline, instead of coming out through the nose again, ran down my throat with the blood and into my stomach.

“At the end of the twelfth round, I believed it was a good time to take a swallow of this brandy and orange juice. It had hardly gotten to my stomach when the ring started whirling around. The bell rang for the thirteenth round; the seconds pushed me from my chair. I actually saw two red opponents. How I ever survived the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth rounds is still a mystery to me. At any rate, the only consciousness I had was to keep trying. I knew if I ever relaxed, I would either collapse or the referee would stop the brutality.”