Greb, Langford, p4p and lack of film

[sonnyboyx2]

I agree totally

Now again another lie from Sonny on Sam...this guy whatever

When Sam fought Jack Johnson he weighed 156 pounds.Jack Weighed over 180 pounds

When Sam Ko'd Willis he gave up 40 pounds and weighed under 180...from 1908 to 1913 that is in Sam's prime he regularly cold ****ed heavy weights never weighing more than 180-185 pounds at most and mostly weighing 175 pounds, he was supposed to fight ketchel for the middle weight championship for god's sake.

When toney campaigned at Heavy he weighed well over 200 pounds. And Sam Langford beat Jeanette at his prime, McVea at his prime and Willis at his prime weighing less than 185 pounds at most and mostly weighing around the 175 pounds. Toney beat Holy? Will he able to beat the holy of 1990-92...don't live in a dreamland.

When Sam met Fulton he was thumbed in one eye, could not see and was out of shape. Got Ko'd. He was never in shape. Wanna see how Dempsey fares in 1930 (after retirement) with a far less great fighter? Sam when he weighed 200 pounds was already past it and out of shape, no two ways about it. He was also 37 years of age...Only idiots liek Sonny hold a loss of a out of prime 37 year old against him...So Ali and Louis are both not great? Such a biased moron this idiot is.

Personally I will like JAB to look at Sonny's post history and see the garbage he posts about Sam in all threads.

you could not be more incorrect when claiming i post garbage about Sam Langford, i have always claimed him to be a fantastic fighter and ATG i just do not go along with your theory that he was P4P greater than Robinson, you have on several occasions claimed i have made false statements or exaggerated when discussing Langford and yet again i dont agree... You yourself have made on many occasions exaggerated comments and claims when discussing Langford and i have let them pass without calling you out on them, you have your opinion of who the P4P greater was and i have my opinion with the difference being that i respect your opinion whereas you disrespect mine.

[Greatest1942]

Greb beat Tunney on Tunney's worst ever night:

As Gene would recall in later years, the problems started in the run-up to the fight. “Whilst training for the Greb match, which took place just four months after the Battling Levinsky match, I had the worst possible kind of luck. My left eyebrow was opened and both hands were sorely injured. I had a partial reappearance of the old left elbow trouble, which prevented my using a left jab. Dr Robert J Shea, a close friend who took care of me during my training, thought that a hypodermic injection of adrenaline chloride over the left eye would prevent bleeding when the cut was re-opened by Greb. At my request he injected a hypodermic solution of novocaine into the knuckles of both hands as well. We locked the dressing room door during this performance.

“George Engle, Greb’s manager, wanting to watch the bandages being put on, came over to my dressing room and found the door bolted. He shouted and ******. We could not allow him in until the doctor had finished his work. Getting in finally, he insisted that I remove all the bandages so that he could see whether I had any unlawful substance under them. I refused. He made an awful squawk, ranting in and out of the room. I became angry. Eventually I realised Engle was only trying to protect his fighter, and if I let it get my goat that was my hard luck. Moreover, his not being allowed into the dressing room made the situation look su****ious. I unwound the bandages from my hands and satisfied George that all was well.”

All was not well, however. Tunney’s problems had just begun and the doctor’s injections only served to endanger Gene even more when the perpetual motion machine that was Harry Greb started firing. Tunney quickly stumbled into a nightmare, as he would recall in typically clinical detail: “In the first exchange in the first round, I sustained a double fracture of the nose, which bled continually until the finish. Toward the end of the first round, my left eyebrow was laid open four inches. I am convinced that the adrenaline solution that had been injected so softened the tissue that the first blow or butt I received cut the flesh right to the bone.

“In the third round another cut over the right eye left me looking through a red film. For the best part of twelve rounds, I saw this red phantom-like form dancing before me. I had provided myself with a fifty per cent mixture of brandy and orange juice to take between rounds in the event I became weak from loss of blood. I had never taken anything during a fight up to that time. Nor did I ever again.

“It is impossible to describe the bloodiness of this fight. My seconds were unable to stop either the bleeding from the cut over my left eye, which involved a severed artery, or the bleeding consequent to the nose fractures. Doc Bagley, who was my chief second, made futile attempts to congeal the nose bleeding by pouring adrenaline into his hand and having me snuff it up my nose. This I did round after round. The adrenaline, instead of coming out through the nose again, ran down my throat with the blood and into my stomach.

“At the end of the twelfth round, I believed it was a good time to take a swallow of this brandy and orange juice. It had hardly gotten to my stomach when the ring started whirling around. The bell rang for the thirteenth round; the seconds pushed me from my chair. I actually saw two red opponents. How I ever survived the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth rounds is still a mystery to me. At any rate, the only consciousness I had was to keep trying. I knew if I ever relaxed, I would either collapse or the referee would stop the brutality.”

Do you know that he was atleast jobbed off another fight?Or will you like to know bout those?

[McGoorty]

i have around 20 fights of Henry Armstrong on dvd and he simply is not in the same league as Jones & Robinson in terms of skill (speed, footwork, hand-eye-co, KO power both hands, variety of punches, etc etc )... What is your definition of Boxing skills?

McGrain is on the money, he is talking about this modern definition that a dancer is better at fighting than a fighter, personally I rate Greb, Langford and Armstrong many places above Roy in the ATG rank. What you call skills certainly are that, but all they are is simply a DIFFERENT set of skills. How many times do we see an aesthetically pretty boxer who seems to be far more "skillfull" get knocked cold by an uglier looking ( stylelistically ) tough-guy who surprises all the "experts", sometimes the ugly fighter turns out quicker than "fancy dan", and is actually Better than "fancy dan" .I like sluggers and I hate watching a "superior" boxer on his bike for 12 rounds, Jones often bored me to sleep. Last thing,... They should BAN 12 round championship fights and bring back the 15 or even the full 20 rds and throw all the Alphabet belts away, There is either a dominant Champ or if not a FEW top rated fighters fight each other until there is a dominant fighter (can take a few years) and then you have THE CHAMP, one weight class ONE CHAMP,............. AND they should defend every 4 months minimum,,,, The Fans will come back in droves and it will produce FAR SUPERIOR FIGHTERS,

[McGoorty]

I like the word 'mythical', it implies a legendary quality. If there were more footage they would both have a greater claim, if it indeed showed some degree of genius. Ray's genius was clear to all who saw him, but I've got a sad feeling that even in 1080p HD Langford and Greb would look as dated as their eras actually were. I'd hope otherwise!

They were both splendid and have truely amazing records......so yes, in a 'mythical' sense they might rightly have a claim. BUT over 12/15 rounds at a comparable weight (hence the P4P intent to my mind at least!) to the likes of Robinson or Jones jnr, I honestly think they would be severely shown up.

I will say that were they born into a more modern era, then they might well have both become truely amazing. They clearly had the warrior mentality.

Like Sonnyboy, I am very impressed by tangible skills rather than a written record. I think the availability of fight film as the decades have passed has benefitted fighters greatly on the whole. The ability to study opponents' weaknesses or to work on boxers own defensive shortcomings is surely been invaluable.

I suppose it comes down to what you like in your pound for pound list......the written legend or the skills you can judge for yourself.

Its why I dont have a personal pound for pound list!

I'm sorry but I don't agree. Langford, Mcfarland, Wilde, Darcy, Gans, Nelson, Leonard, TK Lewis, Carpentier, look brilliant EVEN ON the old films and many others I haven't got time to write because it would take days. Your kind like to feel superior to the old timers. Greb, Langford would have laughed at Jones's record, it would have looked like a beginners to them and to talk about these Mythical Skills of Jones just means you are blind to greats like Packey McFarland who was virtually undefeated by much better fighters than Jones ever faced (P4P Welsh is in Jones's league), just watch how fast Packey was, the perfect Boxer a genius, I won't bother to state his HOF victims or his exact record,....... look it up yourself.