Greb, Langford, p4p and lack of film

[BennyST]

i have around 20 fights of Henry Armstrong on dvd and he simply is not in the same league as Jones & Robinson in terms of skill (speed, footwork, hand-eye-co, KO power both hands, variety of punches, etc etc )... What is your definition of Boxing skills?

They are not skills. They are natural attributes. How you use them is skill. You can push those with training but they are just physical attributes and not a skill. Skill is something you learn. You don't learn speed and knock out power and reflexes. You either have them or you don't. You can increase it slightly by having the correct leverage and technique etc. but they are still not skills.

A skill is a particular counter combo off a well slipped punch. Things learned.

[sonnyboyx2]

They are not skills. They are natural attributes. How you use them is skill. You can push those with training but they are just physical attributes and not a skill. Skill is something you learn. You don't learn speed and knock out power and reflexes. You either have them or you don't. You can increase it slightly by having the correct leverage and technique etc. but they are still not skills.

A skill is a particular counter combo off a well slipped punch. Things learned.

oh ok.....

[BennyST]

oh ok.....

What, you don't agree?

[GJC]

To play devils advocate I would point out that most of the film on Robinson is of him as a MW when you could argue he was not prime. Throw some films of those WW fights in and many would probably rank him even higher.

[Spartacus Sully]

A skill is a particular counter combo off a well slipped punch. Things learned.

are the reflexes to slip that punch and timing to counter it when all your opponets weight is coming forward skills? is the aility to throw a punch straighter therefore faster then your opponet a skill? is the ability to distance your punches so they land perfectly at the end of your reach at full speed and power along with giving you the most distance for defense a skill?

if things like hand eye cord and reflexes wernt skills everyone could pick up champon ship fighting read the chapter on countering and throw perfectly timed counters.

I say speed power accuracy distance reflexes hand eye cordination ect...these are the only true skills in boxing everythign else is just technique.

[BennyST]

are the reflexes to slip that punch and timing to counter it when all your opponets weight is coming forward skills? is the aility to throw a punch straighter therefore faster then your opponet a skill? is the ability to distance your punches so they land perfectly at the end of your reach at full speed and power along with giving you the most distance for defense a skill?

if things like hand eye cord and reflexes wernt skills everyone could pick up champon ship fighting read the chapter on countering and throw perfectly timed counters.

I say speed power accuracy distance reflexes hand eye cordination ect...these are the only true skills in boxing everythign else is just technique.

It's very much a semantics thing. I consider technique a persons true skill. I think of skill as something learned. That's what a skill actually is. The other stuff could be defined as a person's natural skills but I think of them more as their God given talents.

They have to train these talents obviously and put them into ways to apply them better than others and that's where the skill comes into play. Skill is how they use those talents. It's what they have learned to make full use of them.

Learning to throw a punch straighter, therefore faster, is a skill. The natural speed at which you throw it at is, in my opinion, your God given talent or your natural physical attributes.

No, the reflexes and timing inherent in someone is also a talent. How you have learned to use them ie. practicing to slip, then counter with a certain punch is a skill. It's the learned technique to apply natural talent.

Saying that everyone could become championship fighters is rubbish. People have more natural talent than others. They have different fighting styles.

Skill is what you have learned to better use natural physical and mental attributes that are inherent in you. It's why someone like Mayweather is better than Guzman. I'd say they both have about the same talents. Mayweather is more skilled at using them than Guzman is. He has learned better. Guzman hasn't learned to throw his punches straight. His skill isn't as high as Mayweather's therefore his natural talents aren't used as well.

There is a difference between them though. Skill, as I said already, is something learned. You were talking about distance. Distance is a skill. It's picked up through experience, sparring, learning your arms length and using it against your opponent. A fighter doesn't come in and have great distance straight away.

Mosley has great natural talent. His reflexes were excellent, his speed incredible, power etc all amazing. His skill though left something to be desired. He never did learn distance well. He never learned how to cut off the ring well. His jab was often useless and his defence was terrible. He didn't learn to use his inherent abilities to his full potential. He didn't learn to apply enough skills.

Skill is defined as something learned. That's what it actually means. It does get confused by a lot of people with someone's natural ability though. I think you may be getting those mixed up. Talent and skill. All that stuff you are talking about as skill is a fighters natural talents. How they use it, what they have learned to apply those things, is their skill. It's why someone like Mayweather, Toney, Hopkins etc are thought of as very skillful fighters. They have learned many, many techniques to apply their talents in the best way. It's also why Roy Jones is thought of as much more talented than skillful. He doesn't have as much skill as those guys but he has more natural talent.

[Spartacus Sully]

It's very much a semantics thing. I consider technique a persons true skill. I think of skill as something learned. That's what a skill actually is. The other stuff could be defined as a person's natural skills but I think of them more as their God given talents.

They have to train these talents obviously and put them into ways to apply them better than others and that's where the skill comes into play. Skill is how they use those talents. It's what they have learned to make full use of them.

Learning to throw a punch straighter, therefore faster, is a skill. The natural speed at which you throw it at is, in my opinion, your God given talent or your natural physical attributes.

No, the reflexes and timing inherent in someone is also a talent. How you have learned to use them ie. practicing to slip, then counter with a certain punch is a skill. It's the learned technique to apply natural talent.

Saying that everyone could become championship fighters is rubbish. People have more natural talent than others. They have different fighting styles.

Skill is what you have learned to better use natural physical and mental attributes that are inherent in you. It's why someone like Mayweather is better than Guzman. I'd say they both have about the same talents. Mayweather is more skilled at using them than Guzman is. He has learned better. Guzman hasn't learned to throw his punches straight. His skill isn't as high as Mayweather's therefore his natural talents aren't used as well.

There is a difference between them though. Skill, as I said already, is something learned. You were talking about distance. Distance is a skill. It's picked up through experience, sparring, learning your arms length and using it against your opponent. A fighter doesn't come in and have great distance straight away.

Mosley has great natural talent. His reflexes were excellent, his speed incredible, power etc all amazing. His skill though left something to be desired. He never did learn distance well. He never learned how to cut off the ring well. His jab was often useless and his defence was terrible. He didn't learn to use his inherent abilities to his full potential. He didn't learn to apply enough skills.

Skill is defined as something learned. That's what it actually means. It does get confused by a lot of people with someone's natural ability though. I think you may be getting those mixed up. Talent and skill. All that stuff you are talking about as skill is a fighters natural talents. How they use it, what they have learned to apply those things, is their skill. It's why someone like Mayweather, Toney, Hopkins etc are thought of as very skillful fighters. They have learned many, many techniques to apply their talents in the best way. It's also why Roy Jones is thought of as much more talented than skillful. He doesn't have as much skill as those guys but he has more natural talent.

i havnt read all of this but what i did read it seems like your opinion a boxer is born and not made as that is incorrect and i have no plans to turn this into an argument of not only what skill is but whether or not boxers are born or made.

the diffrence between a prime roy and a current roy is about 5 hours of training not a loss of natural talents.

but in your world where boxers are born and not made then yes natural talents like relfexes and hand eye cordination are going to have an inherient celing when your born and you shouldnt consider them skills....or something

[BennyST]

i havnt read all of this but what i did read it seems like your opinion a boxer is born and not made as that is incorrect and i have no plans to turn this into an argument of not only what skill is but whether or not boxers are born or made.

the diffrence between a prime roy and a current roy is about 5 hours of training not a loss of natural talents.

but in your world where boxers are born and not made then yes natural talents like relfexes and hand eye cordination are going to have an inherient celing when your born and you shouldnt consider them skills....or something

What? Stop being so dense. Boxers are both born and made. Mayweather was born into a boxing family. He still had to learn boxing skills and train like a mutha***a though. Jones was born into a boxing family. But, talent is as much about disposition as anything. Physical talents are important but a great fighter must have the disposition to train, train, train and then train some more and be willing to learn.

I don't know where you got this born and not made thing? Where did I say that? In case you missed it. I said a skill is something learned. It's why people keep saying Pac is getting more and more skillful. It's because he's learning new things. He is adding more skills to his great natural talents of speed and power.

Put it to anything. A musician can hear music well naturally. He might have great natural rhythm but that's not a skill. It's a natural asset. What he then learns in music through listening, playing and practicing are his music skills. A skillful musician, boxer, footballer, snooker player, whatever is someone who has learned more things than the next guy. All talent does is help with certain things.

Same with boxing. A fighter can have very little natural talent but if they train hard, think about it all the time and learn a lot in the gym then they can be great. That goes without saying.

What I was saying, and it helps to actually read the post properly before saying that I think fighters are born and not made 'in my world', is that a skill is something learned. Whether through experience, sparring, heavy bag work, speed bag, drills, endless repetition of things etc etc.

In fact, the way you are talking is much more akin to fighters being born and not made. If you think speed, power, reflexes, hand eye coordination are a fighters most important skills and that's what makes a fighter then you are the one saying that fighters are born and not made.

I am saying a fighters skill is based on what he learns, not what his physical gifts are.

Again, Roy Jones is considered more talented than skillful. He has great skill. I am not saying he doesn't at all. Every single fighter at the top and any ranked fighter is very, very skillful. Some ore than others and some are naturally more talented to. Jones is more talented than most; meaning a lot of the things he does are based purely on his ridiculous natural gifts of speed, power and reflexes. What you said above proves my point. He has fallen because he basically only relies on those natural talents now instead of training to keep them sharp and keep his learned skills up. The less he trains, the more he will rely on being able to move simply with his speed and natural attributes. The more he trains his skills, ie the stuff he has learned the better he can slip, duck, block, parry, counter etc successfully.

Fighters are both born and made. They can be born with great physical talents but they must then go learn the skills of boxing to harness them to their greatest extent. That's what makes great fighters. Becoming the most skillful they can with what talent they have.

[Greatest1942]

What? Stop being so dense. Boxers are both born and made. Mayweather was born into a boxing family. He still had to learn boxing skills and train like a mutha***a though. Jones was born into a boxing family. But, talent is as much about disposition as anything. Physical talents are important but a great fighter must have the disposition to train, train, train and then train some more and be willing to learn.

I don't know where you got this born and not made thing? Where did I say that? In case you missed it. I said a skill is something learned. It's why people keep saying Pac is getting more and more skillful. It's because he's learning new things. He is adding more skills to his great natural talents of speed and power.

Put it to anything. A musician can hear music well naturally. He might have great natural rhythm but that's not a skill. It's a natural asset. What he then learns in music through listening, playing and practicing are his music skills. A skillful musician, boxer, footballer, snooker player, whatever is someone who has learned more things than the next guy. All talent does is help with certain things.

Same with boxing. A fighter can have very little natural talent but if they train hard, think about it all the time and learn a lot in the gym then they can be great. That goes without saying.

What I was saying, and it helps to actually read the post properly before saying that I think fighters are born and not made 'in my world', is that a skill is something learned. Whether through experience, sparring, heavy bag work, speed bag, drills, endless repetition of things etc etc.

In fact, the way you are talking is much more akin to fighters being born and not made. If you think speed, power, reflexes, hand eye coordination are a fighters most important skills and that's what makes a fighter then you are the one saying that fighters are born and not made.

I am saying a fighters skill is based on what he learns, not what his physical gifts are.

Again, Roy Jones is considered more talented than skillful. He has great skill. I am not saying he doesn't at all. Every single fighter at the top and any ranked fighter is very, very skillful. Some ore than others and some are naturally more talented to. Jones is more talented than most; meaning a lot of the things he does are based purely on his ridiculous natural gifts of speed, power and reflexes. What you said above proves my point. He has fallen because he basically only relies on those natural talents now instead of training to keep them sharp and keep his learned skills up. The less he trains, the more he will rely on being able to move simply with his speed and natural attributes. The more he trains his skills, ie the stuff he has learned the better he can slip, duck, block, parry, counter etc successfully.

Fighters are both born and made. They can be born with great physical talents but they must then go learn the skills of boxing to harness them to their greatest extent. That's what makes great fighters. Becoming the most skillful they can with what talent they have.

I am in accord with your views mostly.

I will like to say to GJC one thing, for me if someone beats other greats consistently while giving up huge advantage in weigh it becomes a major factor.

No doubt Sugar Ray was better at Welter, as I have every belief Willie Pep was better than the footage we have of him. But they were not beating ATG fighters giving up 40 pounds in weigh. I don't see a 160 pound Sugar fighting 190 pounds heavies.

Also Sam beat more ATGs at different weighs than Sugar.

But i will say again If some one ranks Sugar Ray at #1 its okay with me,he was a great great fighter, but its the lies like no one ranked Sam in the top 10, he wasn't so respected back then, he weighed 200 pounds while he beat heavyweights always, no one wrote about it, that gets me.

Its nothing but absolute bull**** and lies.

[Spartacus Sully]

What? Stop being so dense. Boxers are both born and made. Mayweather was born into a boxing family. He still had to learn boxing skills and train like a mutha***a though. Jones was born into a boxing family. But, talent is as much about disposition as anything. Physical talents are important but a great fighter must have the disposition to train, train, train and then train some more and be willing to learn.

I don't know where you got this born and not made thing? Where did I say that? In case you missed it. I said a skill is something learned. It's why people keep saying Pac is getting more and more skillful. It's because he's learning new things. He is adding more skills to his great natural talents of speed and power.

Put it to anything. A musician can hear music well naturally. He might have great natural rhythm but that's not a skill. It's a natural asset. What he then learns in music through listening, playing and practicing are his music skills. A skillful musician, boxer, footballer, snooker player, whatever is someone who has learned more things than the next guy. All talent does is help with certain things.

Same with boxing. A fighter can have very little natural talent but if they train hard, think about it all the time and learn a lot in the gym then they can be great. That goes without saying.

What I was saying, and it helps to actually read the post properly before saying that I think fighters are born and not made 'in my world', is that a skill is something learned. Whether through experience, sparring, heavy bag work, speed bag, drills, endless repetition of things etc etc.

In fact, the way you are talking is much more akin to fighters being born and not made. If you think speed, power, reflexes, hand eye coordination are a fighters most important skills and that's what makes a fighter then you are the one saying that fighters are born and not made.

I am saying a fighters skill is based on what he learns, not what his physical gifts are.

Again, Roy Jones is considered more talented than skillful. He has great skill. I am not saying he doesn't at all. Every single fighter at the top and any ranked fighter is very, very skillful. Some ore than others and some are naturally more talented to. Jones is more talented than most; meaning a lot of the things he does are based purely on his ridiculous natural gifts of speed, power and reflexes. What you said above proves my point. He has fallen because he basically only relies on those natural talents now instead of training to keep them sharp and keep his learned skills up. The less he trains, the more he will rely on being able to move simply with his speed and natural attributes. The more he trains his skills, ie the stuff he has learned the better he can slip, duck, block, parry, counter etc successfully.

Fighters are both born and made. They can be born with great physical talents but they must then go learn the skills of boxing to harness them to their greatest extent. That's what makes great fighters. Becoming the most skillful they can with what talent they have.

the less he trains the more he relys on his natural talents.....the more he relys on his natural talents the more it shows that there are no natural talents only what you gain from training.

you dont think 100+ amature fights and having been training since he was like 10 had anything to do with jones's natural talents? nah course not he allways had speed power and reflexes...born with it, Gifts, right?