Greb, Langford, p4p and lack of film

[Greatest1942]

Even without the Johnson rematch (a travesty) Langford beat most of the top fighters from lightweight thru heavyweight that his era had to offer. Walcott, Gans, Blackburn, Jeannette, Flynn, McVey, Hague, Ketchel, Clark, O'Brien, Smith, Wills, Jim Johnson, Norfolk, Meehan, Godfrey, Flowers.....and most of them he fought multiple times. Had he been given his chances I think he would have won the middleweight, light heavy and heavyweight titles.

good post Jab.

I would like to add that Langford beat heavies while giving up 40-50 pounds to them . Its not easy. He KO'd them clean. Not easy either. He fought from lightweight to heavyweight and beat ATGs, not just any one. He gave 40 pounds to Willis and won, a top 30 all time heavy.

Sugar Ray was the best fighter I saw on film. But I can't imagine him beating a heavyweight giving up 40-50 pounds.

Greb and Sam regularly fought bigger guys and beat them. What is a P4P list if it doesnot take into accord the fact a guy is beating up good fighters who is 40-50 pounds heavier than him and has significant reach advantage too. Sam beat more ATGS at varied weight than anybody else. If this is not a compelling arguement what is?

There is a old maxim in Boxing "if a good big guy and small guy fight, the good big guy wins"

It takes a great small guy to upset this dictum. Sam and Harry Greb did this regularly.Not once or twice. Also I would like to mention here separetely that Fitz is a great candidate for a P4P list too.

On those films in which Sam is filmed even Ali will look bad...fact.

Sugar Ray might be #1 , but challenging that is not so tough as some seem to think.

[SBleeder]

although Langford, Greb, Duran & Armstrong are all brilliant fighters they do not match up to Robinson & Jones in the skills department with Robinson & Jones most likely being the 2 most skilled fighters of all time (speed, footwork, combinations, KO power both hands, etc )

You can make that statement about Greb without having ever seen him in a fight? You can say that about Armstrong and Langford without having ever seen footage of their primes?

BS.

And there are plenty of modern fighters more skilled than Jones Jr.

[McGrain]

i have around 20 fights of Henry Armstrong on dvd and he simply is not in the same league as Jones & Robinson in terms of skill (speed, footwork, hand-eye-co, KO power both hands, variety of punches, etc etc )... What is your definition of Boxing skills?

Boxing skills to me are anything that can be learned specifc (of as near as) to boxing. So the jab is a skill. Controlling distance and it's functions are a skill.

Contrarily, the things you list, many of them I would NOT consider skill, including power, speed and hand-eye. These are physical attributes harnessed in training and not boxing skills.

So armstrong isn't as fast and powerful as Jones, but he is a much, much, much better in-fighter with much, much better speed of pressure. These are boxing skills, and Armstrong is arguably better in these departments than any fighter in history.

[McGrain]

I honestly think Robinson has the best resume when losses are looked at (while the guy is still capable, not shot to pieces). That said, Langford by far fought the more difficult opposition, so naturally it makes sense he lost a lot more.

You've hit the nail on the head as far as comparing resume goes...of course, this doesn't help us denote who has more skill for their respective styles. I guess i'd go for Robinson based upon what I know though. Langford is one of histories few superior punchers though.

[Greatest1942]

You can make that statement about Greb without having ever seen him in a fight? You can say that about Armstrong and Langford without having ever seen footage of their primes?

BS.

And there are plenty of modern fighters more skilled than Jones Jr.

yes...And while it is convinient for some guys to say Sam was not as respected back then to the contrary he was very respected back then read this

Former champ Jim Jeffries once said, "I think Sam Langford was just as good as (Joe) Louis." Even Louis gave Langford high praise. "My old trainer, Jack Blackburn, told me that Sam Langford was the best of those old-timers, and he saw them all," said Louis.

Jack Johnson :-
“I don’t want to fight that little smoke,” said Johnson. “He’s got a chance to win against anyone in the world. I’m the first black champion and I’m going to be the last.”

“Sam Langford was the toughest little son of a ***** that ever lived.”

“Langford, was the greatest fighter who ever lived,Sam would have been champion any time Johnson had given him a fight. And Johnson knew it better than anybody.” Jeannette often exclaimed while rubbing his oval jaw, “Man! How that baby could hit. Nobody else could hit like that. Well, maybe Joe Louis could,” he conceded. “But don’t forget that Sam only weighed about 160 pounds. Louis was about 195.” --Joe Jeanette


The great former lightweight king Frank Erne, when asked in the 1950s what he thought about Langford, replied: “I’d pick him to knock out Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey and Rock Marciano. When he was not under wraps, he was a ring marvel.”

[McGrain]

I don't know about some of the picks, but I'd say that Langford wouldn't embarrass himself in any company. Certainly Louis, Marciano, Jeffries, Dempsey, Frazier, these guys and other like them would be in for one of the roughest nights of their careers and possibly an L. Against some of the much bigger men, he'd struggle. He was 5'6 after all, and has some losses against much larger rangier men. If you were within his "sphere" he would never be less than a slender underdog IMO.

[sonnyboyx2]

When Langford fought Heavyweights Langford himself weighed 200lbs + he was twice KOd by Fred Fulton who stood 6ft 6ins yet Langford outweighed Fulton, Sam's best fighting days was at 160lbs when he was the worlds best and by some way.. James Toney was the world 160lb champion yet fought and beat some very good heavyweights including Evander Holyfield.

[sonnyboyx2]

I don't know about some of the picks, but I'd say that Langford wouldn't embarrass himself in any company. Certainly Louis, Marciano, Jeffries, Dempsey, Frazier, these guys and other like them would be in for one of the roughest nights of their careers and possibly an L. Against some of the much bigger men, he'd struggle. He was 5'6 after all, and has some losses against much larger rangier men. If you were within his "sphere" he would never be less than a slender underdog IMO.

Sam certainly would not embarrass himself against them fighters but i cannot see him being able to beat them, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey & Frazier are considered Top 5 ATGs IMO he would be up against it with them as they was murderous hitters as well as the later 3 being the top 3 pressure fighters in heavyweight history, it took a fighter who could dance and move away from them to defeat them (Ali & Tunney) with Sam himself putting out newspaper articles saying he would fight any fighter in the world with the exception of Jim Jeffries.

[Greatest1942]

I don't know about some of the picks, but I'd say that Langford wouldn't embarrass himself in any company. Certainly Louis, Marciano, Jeffries, Dempsey, Frazier, these guys and other like them would be in for one of the roughest nights of their careers and possibly an L. Against some of the much bigger men, he'd struggle. He was 5'6 after all, and has some losses against much larger rangier men. If you were within his "sphere" he would never be less than a slender underdog IMO.

I agree totally

Now again another lie from Sonny on Sam...this guy whatever

When Sam fought Jack Johnson he weighed 156 pounds.Jack Weighed over 180 pounds

When Sam Ko'd Willis he gave up 40 pounds and weighed under 180...from 1908 to 1913 that is in Sam's prime he regularly cold ****ed heavy weights never weighing more than 180-185 pounds at most and mostly weighing 175 pounds, he was supposed to fight ketchel for the middle weight championship for god's sake.

When toney campaigned at Heavy he weighed well over 200 pounds. And Sam Langford beat Jeanette at his prime, McVea at his prime and Willis at his prime weighing less than 185 pounds at most and mostly weighing around the 175 pounds. Toney beat Holy? Will he able to beat the holy of 1990-92...don't live in a dreamland.

When Sam met Fulton he was thumbed in one eye, could not see and was out of shape. Got Ko'd. He was never in shape. Wanna see how Dempsey fares in 1930 (after retirement) with a far less great fighter? Sam when he weighed 200 pounds was already past it and out of shape, no two ways about it. He was also 37 years of age...Only idiots liek Sonny hold a loss of a out of prime 37 year old against him...So Ali and Louis are both not great? Such a biased moron this idiot is.

Personally I will like JAB to look at Sonny's post history and see the garbage he posts about Sam in all threads.

[McGrain]

I agree that Sam's prime weight was around 180-185 and perhaps 190. He was out of shape at 200lbs. I don't know where the idea that Langford's best weight was 160, the man himself certainly disagreed.