Muhammad Ali brags about preaching at a KKK convention

[StarshipTrooper]

So now we're engaging in smear Schmeling to make Ali look good? :rolleyes9:

Poet

[Vadrigar.]

So now we're engaging in smear Schmeling to make Ali look good? :rolleyes9:

Poet

No we don't have to smear either. Except if particular reasoning is used to smear Ali, it can also be used to smear Schmeling. There shouldn't be a double standard. I think this is zagz point.

[joseph5620]

Unbelievable
None of that has anything to do with the movement to bring about the end of racial discrimination or encourage blacks to vote in the Deep South.

The above came about because he joined a black separatist group, not because he was fighting for any rights for his people. Martin Luther King would himself say how upset he is that Ali has joined such a group.The Nation was against the concept of integration which they believed would bring about the destruction of their race. That is why it never got involved in any of the marches, sit ins and movements to encourage blacks in the south to exercise their legal right to vote or end racial discrimination.

You are deliberately mixing up two separate things which are not even remotely related

You asked the question "What did Ali ever do?" I answered it.

You keep speaking of Martin Luther King as if Malcolm X always had a harmonious relationship with King. Malcolm X once called King, Thurgood Marshall, and Jackie Robinson "Uncle Toms" yet you hold him to a different standard than Ali. You call Malcolm X a civil rights activist but still haven't answered the question of what exactly did he do that separates him from Ali? They both changed during their lives and Malcom X was a lot older than Ali. Don't tell me what Malcolm X planned or talked about bout. What did he get done regarding Civil rights that separates him from Ali?

[Joeyzagz]

No we don't have to smear either. Except if particular reasoning is used to smear Ali, it can also be used to smear Schmeling. There shouldn't be a double standard.

Exactly. Schmeling is one of my favorite fighters. His life can be taken out of context just as easily as Ali's. Moreso actually seeing as Hitler is the #1 ATG when it comes to evil.

2: Don't criticize Ali, because you have the user name Ironmike, which must mean you wholeheartedly support everything Mike Tyson has ever done

You changed your long-time username after that little post. Obviously I struck a nerve, princess.

If you can't handle someone criticizing your name, I can only imagine what youd do with the threat of death hanging over your head?

[StarshipTrooper]

Exactly. Schmeling is one of my favorite fighters. His life can be taken out of context just as easily as Ali's. Moreso actually seeing as Hitler is the #1 ATG when it comes to evil.

Stalin and Mao made Hitler look like an inept Minor Leagurer when it came to mass-murder.

Poet

[joseph5620]

Go to 1:50-3:50

After the death of Elijah Muhammad control of the nation would be passed to his son, W. Deen Mohammed. Who would then realign the group to be more in line with the teachings of Sunni Islam. in 1978 Farrakhan would break away to form his own Nation of Islam

http://www.biography.com/articles/Lo...rakhan-9291850

Which is because of W.D.Muhammad changing the nations beliefs to fit in more with Sunni Islam. The Nation changed and he changed with it.
If you want to say he changed his religious views, fine, but you cannot say he left the group.

I think his religious views are the point. And yes I can say Ali left the NOI. If you want to go that route, you claimed Ali never left the NOI. Muhammad Ali is no longer associated with the Nation of Islam in any way, shape, or form. I don't know how it can be made any more clear to you. I used his conversion as a starting point. You keep saying he never left the NOI and that is completely false. In 1993 he filed a lawsuit against Elijah Muhammad's son Herbert for using his name to profit Islamic causes.




Does this look like Ali is/was still in the Nation of Islam to you?

While managing Ali, Muhammad secured multimillion-dollar purses for the champion as he fought and won three heavyweight titles and became the most recognized athlete of his generation. Muhammad could demand almost anything for a fight or appearance, and both he and the Nation of Islam were rewarded with a healthy cut of the action.

"I think he genuinely cared about Ali. But he was also interested in making money for himself," Hauser said.

Ali's wife, Lonnie, gradually took over her husband's business affairs, and Muhammad and the boxer cut ties in the early 1990s. In 1993, Ali sued Muhammad, alleging that a foundation that used the boxer's name improperly used his signature in fundraising letters and other work intended to promote Islamic causes. The lawsuit was settled the next year when the foundation changed its name.


Who do you think that foundation was? What group was promoting Islamic causes?


http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug.../me-muhammad27

[Toney616]

You are ignoring the reality of the hostile era that caused him to join the movement

Stop
Lets look at the facts:
-He was born in a neighborhood to two middle class parents.
-His family were financially secure so he never suffered any hardships as a child and never had to work
-Outside of school he goes to church with his mum and attends boxing lesson given by a local white policeman
-He goes to the Olympics and wins a gold medal for his country. He is asked by a communist reporter about the problems in his country he tells the reporter that America has problems but we have a lot of intelligent people back home who will solve that problem. i.e Ali is a optimist and thinks positively about his country
-He goes back home and is sponsored by a group of white millionaire backers who give him an advance of around 50K.
-He is sent to train with Archie Moore, but they fall out because Moore wants him to clean floors and carry out rubbish which pampered middle class Ali refuses to do.
-He moves to Miami and hooks up with white trainer Angelo Dundee and later on Ferdie Pacheco

The so called hostile environment you insist he lives is obviously hasn't affected him. Just because he was a black man living in America back in the 60's doesn't mean he felt he was was constantly in danger. Or that there were threats around every corner. Now unless you get a direct quote from Ali saying otherwise then you cannot assume things you simply cannot know

Millions of black people in America at that time turned to the church to deal with the harshness of life. Others turned to Civil Rights Movements as well , because they were hoping that they could bring around an actual change. His parents, family members where shocked that he joined such a movement. Patterson(a civil rights activists) constantly tried to talk him out of leaving the group

Ali joined the nation because it offered him knowledge about his history and himself. go to 0:10

Does that sound like he was scared of the so called hostile environment you claim he was in?
5 : Dont criticize Ali he was the product of a hostile environment. Whats you next argument?

[Toney616]

If you can't handle someone criticizing your name, I can only imagine what youd do with the threat of death hanging over your head?

I changed it so I can deny you another ridicoulous point for which to argue. To assume that you completely condone a fighters behaviour out of the ring because you have their name as a USERNAME is the logic of a 12 year old child.

What are you going to talk about now anyway? So far you have spoken about Tyson, Olympics, Hitler, Schmeling what other non related boxer/subject are you going to talk about now?

You only entered this thread to disagree with me, you never really had anything constructive to add to this debate in the first place.

[Toney616]

[B][I]You asked the question "What did Ali ever do?" I answered it.

Joseph I have to give up with you. You just don't know what you are talking about. How on earth does a guy refusing to go to war because of his religious beliefs make him part of the civil rights movement?
Off the top of my head:
-Elijah hated America so much they he worked with Japanese agents to undermine Americas recruitment of Black soldiers. He would end of serving 4 years in prison for it.(second world war)
-Many members of the nation fled to Canada to avoid being drafted.

If a Klans man refused to serve because of his racist loony beliefs does that make him a civil rights activist as well according to your bizarre logic?

You keep speaking of Martin Luther King as if Malcolm X always had a harmonious relationship with King. Malcolm X once called King, Thurgood Marshall, and Jackie Robinson "Uncle Toms" yet you hold him to a different standard than Ali.

I never said that or even implied it. They resolved their differences after Malcolm X had left the Nation and had started the process of working out an active plan together

You call Malcolm X a civil rights activist but still haven't answered the question of what exactly did he do that separates him from Ali?

He had always wanted to get involved in the struggle and was tired on sitting on the sidelines its was the main reason(among others) that he would fall out with Elijah Muhammad. He had outgrown the nation and wanted to play an active role in helping his people. He would meet with King and many other civil rights workers and start to hammer out a plan for them to actually work together. He was then killed.

Ali did nothing at all and never had any intention of EVER doing anything. So he has no right to pick up any awards. What part of that do you not understand?

[Toney616]

No we don't have to smear either. Except if particular reasoning is used to smear Ali, it can also be used to smear Schmeling. There shouldn't be a double standard. I think this is zagz point.

Zagz has already destroyed his own point. And unless you can tell me about Schmeling picking up civil rights awards then he shouldn't even be talked about here