Vitali Klitschko vs Primo Carnera......... Who Wins?

[StarshipTrooper]

You'll need a whahmbulance when you cop your ban

Poet

[TheGreatA]

Loss to Lewis - Winning on all scorecards until injury forced him to stop
Loss to Bryd - Winning on all scorecard until injury forced him to stop

We were discussing about what is "factual".

Saying that Vitali lost to the two best opponents he faced is factual. Saying that he lost due to injuries is also factual.

Saying that a prime Carnera was knocked out by the two hardest punchers he faced is factual. Saying that a prime Carnera was only knocked out by two of the hardest punchers who ever boxed is also factual.

Your first post was clearly biased towards Vitali and against Carnera.

Jack Sharkey? Still not a greater Heavyweight than Lennox Lewis. Sharkey lost 5 of his last 8 bouts and was on the slide when Carnera defeated him.

Greater than anyone Vitali ever beat, that's for certain. Was still the heavyweight champion of the world. Many of Vitali's opponents have gone on the slide after he beat them, it tends to happen when you get knocked out.

I'll say that Sharkey wasn't at his best, but he was still a very capable fighter. Comparable to the Sanders win for Vitali, except Sanders only beat one ranked opponent in his life, a great win over Wladimir, but only one win. Sharkey fought a higher percentage of top 10 contenders than any heavyweight other than possibly Muhammad Ali.

Not Vitali's fault that lewis chose to come in at that fault. Vitali took the fight on 10 days notice - FACT

Also a fact that he was training for a fight on the undercard and was prepared to fight.

In the currect climate. Yes. It is.

No it is not. Wladimir has beaten more than 10 top contenders. He has an edge on Vitali in resume.

He's not bigger than 250, as we were discussing.

Weighed more than Wladimir Klitschko and around the same as Vitali Klitschko, and was taller than both. I'd say he belonged in discussion as a true super heavyweight.

He could knock out men both big and small, but the majority of KO wins were over smaller men.

The majority of his KO's were over men of his size.

Regardless, Byrd is a slick, illusive fighter and it shouldnt be held against Vitali. Or are we going to hold Bob Paster against Louis?

true.

Who weighed over 200 pounds. Charles weighed less than 185.

Byrd was literally "blown up", at 200+ pounds while Charles fought at his best fighting weight. Chris claimed he walked around at less than 200 pounds, and ate his way to being a heavyweight. His own words.

James Toney weighed 230+ pounds but I would not claim that he is a big heavyweight.

I do not hold Vitali's inability to KO Byrd against him. I was arguing that he never showcased true one punch power as Louis and Baer did, against either men small or big. You brought up that smaller men had lasted rounds against Louis and Baer. In most of those cases they could not land on their smaller, mobile opponents.

Observation from the fights I've seen of both. Carnera never seemed to have the balance that Vitali has. Vitali is much more steady whereas Carnera had a tendency to wobble with his movement - poor dexterity.

Vitali looks somewhat ponderous too. Against Arreola he actually turned his back at times. Carnera had good agility for a man of his size, but his footwork could be made to look poor against a good boxer who used elusive foot and upperbody movement. His punching technique was far from flawless other than with the jab. He pushed his right and sometimes left himself off balance.

Still doesn't negate the fact he was pounded mercilessly by Baer.

It wasn't the one-sided beatdown that you make it out to have been. Carnera won several rounds and it was obvious that his ankle was bothering him. Some of the knockdowns were little more than Carnera's foot going out from under him.

You switched from comparing Carnera to Vitali and somehow brought Valuev's name into the equation.

I'm putting his supposedly "rigged" career into a modern perspective. You're bringing up the opinions of men who were used to seeing fighters fight top opponents on a regular basis and not against tomato cans as Carnera did. Vitali would have also been accused of being a "built-up" foreigner in those days. Some do even today.

Still doesn't justify it.

Why are you bringing it up though in this discussion when both parties are guilty of having fought outmatched opposition?

[sonnyboyx2]

some excellent analysis from Great A.. There seems to be very little between Vitali & Carnera in terms of height, weight, ability, quality of opponents etc etc so it is fair to assume that they are `level-pegging` with very few people having Carnera in their list of Top 20 heavyweight champions which is why i would rate Vitali along side of him.

[beez721]

Lets start off with your sig which has a quote i made saying "Hopkins, Lennox & Chavez was never p4p No1 rated in the P4P ratings"..... 100% correct yet you seem to have some kind of problem with that.

Vitali Klitschko IMO would be knocked out by Primo Carnera who has more KO victories than any heavyweight champion in history, Carnera has faced and beaten far better opposition than Vitali with Vitali only having beaten mediocre Class C journeymen, also Carnera is not a "quitter"like Vitali is who quit against Chris Byrd.. Carnera is huge compaired to Vitali which would be the first time Vitali had faced a fighter bigger & far stronger than himself, i see Carnera knocking Vitali from pillar to post and Koing him in 8rds

lol,,if you think carnera would beat vitali youre either kidding or a moron

[JAB5239]

We were discussing about what is "factual".

Saying that Vitali lost to the two best opponents he faced is factual. Saying that he lost due to injuries is also factual.

Saying that a prime Carnera was knocked out by the two hardest punchers he faced is factual. Saying that a prime Carnera was only knocked out by two of the hardest punchers who ever boxed is also factual.

Your first post was clearly biased towards Vitali and against Carnera.



Greater than anyone Vitali ever beat, that's for certain. Was still the heavyweight champion of the world. Many of Vitali's opponents have gone on the slide after he beat them, it tends to happen when you get knocked out.

I'll say that Sharkey wasn't at his best, but he was still a very capable fighter. Comparable to the Sanders win for Vitali, except Sanders only beat one ranked opponent in his life, a great win over Wladimir, but only one win. Sharkey fought a higher percentage of top 10 contenders than any heavyweight other than possibly Muhammad Ali.




Also a fact that he was training for a fight on the undercard and was prepared to fight.



No it is not. Wladimir has beaten more than 10 top contenders. He has an edge on Vitali in resume.



Weighed more than Wladimir Klitschko and around the same as Vitali Klitschko, and was taller than both. I'd say he belonged in discussion as a true super heavyweight.



The majority of his KO's were over men of his size.



Byrd was literally "blown up", at 200+ pounds while Charles fought at his best fighting weight. Chris claimed he walked around at less than 200 pounds, and ate his way to being a heavyweight. His own words.

James Toney weighed 230+ pounds but I would not claim that he is a big heavyweight.

I do not hold Vitali's inability to KO Byrd against him. I was arguing that he never showcased true one punch power as Louis and Baer did, against either men small or big. You brought up that smaller men had lasted rounds against Louis and Baer. In most of those cases they could not land on their smaller, mobile opponents.



Vitali looks somewhat ponderous too. Against Arreola he actually turned his back at times. Carnera had good agility for a man of his size, but his footwork could be made to look poor against a good boxer who used elusive foot and upperbody movement. His punching technique was far from flawless other than with the jab. He pushed his right and sometimes left himself off balance.



It wasn't the one-sided beatdown that you make it out to have been. Carnera won several rounds and it was obvious that his ankle was bothering him. Some of the knockdowns were little more than Carnera's foot going out from under him.



I'm putting his supposedly "rigged" career into a modern perspective. You're bringing up the opinions of men who were used to seeing fighters fight top opponents on a regular basis and not against tomato cans as Carnera did. Vitali would have also been accused of being a "built-up" foreigner in those days. Some do even today.



Why are you bringing it up though in this discussion when both parties are guilty of having fought outmatched opposition?

This was a one sided beat down and free education given by TheGreatA. It's always unfortunate when you lead a horse to water and he doesn't drink. Just goes to show how close minded and stubborn a big dumb animal can be.

[Klitschko2011]

Vitali destroys Carnera.

Just ignore the ******ed Klitschko haters.

[JAB5239]

Vitali destroys Carnera.

Just ignore the ******ed Klitschko haters. Just ignore the facts.

No hate, just logic, sense and facts. Of course the nuthuggers hate those 3 little things though, don't they? I have yet to see anything TheGreatA has pointed out logically rebutted.

[BennyST]

No hate, just logic, sense and facts. Of course the nuthuggers hate those 3 little things though, don't they? I have yet to see anything TheGreatA has pointed out logically rebutted.

Dude? Can't you read?

Vitali destroys Carnera.

Just ignore the ******ed Klitschko haters.

Logically rebutted right there, in the same way it always is!

[Die Antwoord]

Get ready for a double dose of beatdown from the Vitali Kltischko of this board. A man who has never been knocked down. A man with the greatest KO% in the history section. Do you hear that music? Is it Enter Sandman or Hells Bells? I dont know, I cant hear too good anymore.

It is not factual to say that Lous and Baer are two of the hardest punchers who ever boxed. P4P sure. Ill give you that, but the fact is that Joe Louis fought the same amount of guys under 200 as he had KO's. Also we all know that height and distance away from a fighters chin helps reduce the blows. The shots Lewis landed on Vitali were so much more powerful than anything Carnera was taking. Its just pure physics. I often question the "reaches" of fighters back then. I think many like Baer's might be a bit overblown. A 6'2 white guy with an 81'' reach? But still it doesnt matter, if you fight someone than much larger than you its hard to land fully loaded shots on them or a full arsenal of shots. The uppercute Lewis hit Vitali with for example, not sure if Louis could have his Carnera with such a shot unless he had star power in mike tyson's punchout. I dont know enough about boxing in the 20's and 30's to really discuss Baer's resume...im not sure if anyone does. I cant tell you if a win over Tiny Abbott was something good or not. Or why he fought Benny Hill twice or things like that I dont know. I do know that a brief glance at his record would suggest he fought a ton of smaller guys and a lot of bums. I know he is supposedly one of the greatest punchers etc...but I dont see how its a fact that he hit harder than Lewis, Ruddock, or even a Sam Peter. I mean I just dont know. I havent seen, and I dont think anyone has seen his loss to 2-3-0 Jack Mcarthy to know if it was a ****** DQ, a frustrated DQ (kinda like Golata's or RJJ's which also can be called ****** as well), or just a savage beatdown and a DQ like Tyson could have gotten in some fights when he just didnt stop beating on people who wouldnt go down.(even after the ref called it). I simply dont know. I would be happy to hear more about it though. Still I just dont think its fair to say they are 2 of the hardest punchers in history, p4p and height 4 height sure, but power tends to diminish on the taller fighters chins so again I feel like another big guy would hurt more against Carnera, even if they werent throwing technically as hard.

Vitali does destroy his opponents, but I dont think thats a bad thing. Vitali has beat some pretty good fighters, but I will say that tons of guys in the past have greater resumes and fought "greater" fighters. I think Louis was "greater" than Vitali, just like I think Floyd is greater than Vitali...I think neither could stand with Vitali in the ring though. Look at Juan Carlos Gomez. A great cruiser who moved up to hw. At cruiser he was about Sharkey's size. I think Gomez at that size beats Sharkey. The dude was great at cruiser weight. Tons of power, athleticism, just beastly. Gomez was a former Cruiserweight champ who had 9 title defenses successfully. He is currently 49-2 with one loss coming to Vitali the other was just a perfect shot that hurt him badly. We can talk about primes and all that, but I am just using Gomez as a guy who had a perfect cruiser record, who had great power at cruiser and who an old Vitali, looking old, beat handily. Heck Vitali was toying with him, got a point deducted and got mad and finished him.

Would the version of Sharkey that Carnera beat really beat the version of Gomez Vitali beat? I really dont think either way is factual.

Vitali was training for a fight and it wasnt like he was called and totally shocked, but he wasnt training for a HW championship fight against Lewis. For the biggest fight of your career you deserve more than 10 days to prep for your opponent. Vitali is a relentless worker. He didnt have time to work on a game plan for Lewis...and he needed to. That clearly affected him...as I am sure it affected Lewis. A rematch should have happened. Vitali never got a chance to avenge that loss.

Vitali Klitschko fought Arreola to perfection. The arreola fight shows what Vitali Klitschko could do with time to prepare. He didnt lose a round imo. Arreola was an undefeated top 10 fighter who Vitali savagely beat and made quit and did it with ease. Does Vitali look a little awkward at times...sure, but thats because he is so big. he is 6'8...oh and he was 38 years old at the time too. His balance clearly is pretty good if he never goes down. For Arreola it was clear he didnt want to risk a chin check...thats called being smart. Thats why Vitali always finishes on top on the score cards.


Heres the thing Vitali has never been knocked down. He gets no respect from boxing historians despite havign missed some of his best years due to injury and partaking in kick boxing. People all say on here, "Oh man Marciano..if he had started focusing on boxing before 24...man woulda been so incredible." or "Man had Ali not spent 3 years fighting exhibitions...dude woulda been so amazing. Totally missed his prime." You say something like, "Vitali didnt focus on boxing till well into his mid 20's and he missed 4 years of his prime with injuries" and someone on here goes "shutup troll go back to NSB." Vitali hits harder than Carnera, has a better chin, is faster, is a better boxer, better reflexes. When I see Carnera throwing double upper cuts and fighting perfectly from the outside with one clinch in a match like Vitali did against Williams, then this is worth discussing. Smaller guys cant get inside on Vitali yet they did so with Carnera with ease.

Also who knows what was real and fake with Carnera. Its always been said that a lot of his fights were fixed. So who knows.

Vitali tries to fight everyone out there even at 39. Again no sympathy for Vitali being older. Vitali is the most underrated guy out there. Started boxing late, was seriously injured and took 4 years off, never makes excuses.

As for the Byrd fight, Vitali was killing him. After the fight Vitali looks a bit confused. I really cant explain that fight or what happened there. Vitali just looks like he didnt understand why anyoen would care if he withdrew. I remember Golata had done a similar thing earlier too. I kiind of wonder if Eastern Euro's didnt understand the importance of each match and viewed it similar to the amateur ranks where there would always be another shot or something. Vitali was hurt, didnt want to continue, didnt want to look bad or lose a round etc... so withdrew. Seems logical if youre not fighting for the HW title, if you notice Vitali was not "Americanized" at all at that point, had an interpreter etc...I think he really just didnt understand the gravity of the situation and seemed to treat it the way youd treat a sparring session or an amateur fight. Even in the ring after he looks confused with Merchant's questions.

I think Vitali gets it now.

To me this isnt even a fight. To me Vitali murders him in the ring. I see any version of Lewis as being on another level than Primo Carnera and Vitali went toe to toe with Lewis and deserved a rematch. Carnera? had half the skills, half the inteligence, the athleticism, the chin etc...

Oh and I agree Wlad has the better resume and when all is said and done will go down higher on the ATG lists. that being said people shoud remember Vitali got a later start to his career and was punished by serious injuries.

[sonnyboyx2]

Your entire post is full of Excuse after Excuse for Vitali's pitfalls... Stop making up exaggerated excuses to try to prove your hero to be a world-beater, he is not and never will be a world-beater..

Juan Carlos Gomez, Danny Williams & Chris Arreola are nothing but overweight Class C bums... Yanqui Diaz himself an overweight journeyman left Gomez break-dancing in the ring in less than 2 mins of the opening round... Samil Sam butchered Danny Williams far easier than what Vitali did and Williams was grossly overweight the night he fought Vitali, even Audley Harrison beat Williams... Arreola is a journeyman with very limited boxing ability who started crying in the ring... Yet you are claiming that these 3 bums are better than Max Baer, Jack Sharkey or Joe Louis.... You call into question the reach of Max Baer yet Baer was an awesome physical speciman with a near 50 inch chest measurement, fighters reach is nothing to do with how tall he stands, its measured from finger-tip to finger-tip across a fighters back.

You make Excuses for Vitali quitting against Chris Byrd with a shoulder injury, yet David Tua, Evander Holyfield and one or two others all suffered the same injury when fighting Cris Byrd but they never quit, they stook-it out to the final bell unlike Vitali.

Joe Louis is NOT the Hardest puncher in history - Louis is the BEST puncher in History.

Your theory that Bigger Taller Boxers punch harder is WRONG.. Tall fighters have to punch down which is a disadvantage against a smaller fighter who can punch up.

Jack Sharkey would murder Juan Carlos Gomez.

Vitali has never been knocked down because he has never fought any fighters rated above Class C other than an old Lewis, i am sure if he was to fight Class A opponents he would be tasting the canvas on a regular basis.

Your theory that Vitali missed 4yrs of his prime due to injuries again is not correct as many boxing fans thought at the time he announced his retirement that it was a deliberate ploy by Vitali so that he did not have to fight the top contenders like Rahman, McCall, Ruiz or Toney.... Vitali came back and fought mediocre fighters in Peter, Gomez, Arreola, Johnson & Sosnowski yet you are claiming them as world-beaters who are better than Jack Sharkey.

You said...." I kiind of wonder if Eastern Euro's didnt understand the importance of each match and viewed it similar to the amateur ranks".... laughable comment.

Vitali is no better than Primo Carnera yet Carnera is not a Top 20 rated Heavyweight Champion.