Vitali Klitschko vs Primo Carnera......... Who Wins?

[Zizou2]

Any on the level of a Lennox Lewis or even Chris Byrd? I believe he holds win over only 5 or less top 10 ranked contenders and only one legitimate top ranked contender, Corrie Sanders.

Does Carnera have a victory over a fighter greater at Heavyweight than Lennox Lewis? NO.

You seem to forget Vitali was winning that fight even though he took the fight on less than 2 weeks notice.

He has defeated many top contenders and is willing to fight any. Not his fault the likes of Haye and Povetkin are representative of today's prima dona heavyweight division.

Baer and Louis also crushed men over 6'5, 250+ lbs. Vitali couldn't quite get the job done against former super middleweight and amateur light welterweight Chris Byrd. 5'11, 210 lb Vaughn Bean lasted until the 11th round.

Baer only defeated 1 man over 250 pounds and that was glass jawed Carnera. Louis defeated 3; Abe Simon, Buddy Baer both members of the "Bum of the Month Club". Also holds a W over Carnera.

You can't play that game with Vitali's resume.

Vitali has stoppage wins against 37 men who weigh more than 220 pounds. He was leading against Chris Byrd until injury forced him to stop.

Baer went the distance with 183 pound fighters. Where was his power than?
Louis went the distance with 179 pound Bob Pastor. Not to mention he was thoroughly outboxed by blown up LHW Charles.

He is an accumulation puncher against opponents who weigh less than 220 pounds as well.

If Vitali fought blown up LHW's like Pascal and Dawson, I guarantee a 1 punch KO.

He might. Considering Vitali's history though, it seems unlikely that he would drop Carnera more than maybe once or twice.

Considering Carnera's history, it seems likely Vitali will drop him numerous times.

Yes, he has incredible footwork:

Not the best by any strech of the imagination but certainly greater than Carnera's.

Carnera broke his ankle. You don't think that affects balance? That is absolutely ridiculous hypocrisy on your part to make excuses (or "reasons" as you call it) for Vitali but not accepting any for Carnera. You can't have one but not the other in a logical debate.

No. Carnera was a mess and knocked into ***** street by Baer all night. His ankle certainly didnt do him any favours.

No more rigged than this:

Sorry? What was that??

You are comparing Carnera's underworld rigged fights to Vitali??



It's well known Carnera was used by the mob and as his resume suggests, he probably has more bums on his resume than any heavyweight champ in history.

The thing about Carnera is that he was one of the first boxers to have promoters build him up for a title shot, as 90% of fighters are today. In his time, most fighters fought the best consistently and rarely took easy fights. Carnera did, his promoters picked the right fights for him and built his record until they felt he was ready to take another step. Some of his opponents may have given less than their best, given that many of them were outmatched tomato cans, but none of his filmed fights show any sign of being fixed. The Carnera-Sharkey KO has been filmed from another angle and clearly shows Sharkey getting hit with a terrific uppercut from a 260 pound man.

Still doesn't justify the fact Carnera was involved in terribly 1 sided freakshow mismatches.

I never claimed that the punch didn't land, only that there were su****ions and they are certainly entitled to them.



Paul Gallico, a respected New York sports writer, was an eyewitness to Carnera’s rise and fall. He said “there is probably no more scandalous, pitiful, incredible story in all the record of these last mad sports years than the tale of the living giant, a creature out of the legends of antiquity, who was made into a prize fighter.”

In his insightful “Book on Boxing,” Gallico wrote this about Carnera’s sad legacy: “Poor Primo! A giant in stature and strength, a terrible figure of a man, with the might of ten men, he was a helpless lamb among wolves who used him until there was nothing more left to use, until the last possible penny had been squeezed from his big carcass, and then abandoned him. His last days in the United States were spent alone in a hospital. One leg was paralyzed, the result of beatings taken around the head. None of the carrion birds who had picked him clean ever came back to see him or to help him.”

[StarshipTrooper]

Any on the level of a Lennox Lewis or even Chris Byrd? I believe he holds win over only 5 or less top 10 ranked contenders and only one legitimate top ranked contender, Corrie Sanders.

Baer and Louis also crushed men over 6'5, 250+ lbs. Vitali couldn't quite get the job done against former super middleweight and amateur light welterweight Chris Byrd. 5'11, 210 lb Vaughn Bean lasted until the 11th round.

He is an accumulation puncher against opponents who weigh less than 220 pounds as well.

He might. Considering Vitali's history though, it seems unlikely that he would drop Carnera more than maybe once or twice.

Yes, he has incredible footwork:



Carnera broke his ankle. You don't think that affects balance? That is absolutely ridiculous hypocrisy on your part to make excuses (or "reasons" as you call it) for Vitali but not accepting any for Carnera. You can't have one but not the other in a logical debate.

No more rigged than this:



The thing about Carnera is that he was one of the first boxers to have promoters build him up for a title shot, as 90% of fighters are today. In his time, most fighters fought the best consistently and rarely took easy fights. Carnera did, his promoters picked the right fights for him and built his record until they felt he was ready to take another step. Some of his opponents may have given less than their best, given that many of them were outmatched tomato cans, but none of his filmed fights show any sign of being fixed. The Carnera-Sharkey KO has been filmed from another angle and clearly shows Sharkey getting hit with a terrific uppercut from a 260 pound man.

I wouldn't bother.....The dude is completely stuck on size and logical arguments are lost him. No matter what you post he'll always bring it back to "well so and so only weighs X while so and so weighs Y".

He'll also be banned again real soon once the admins catch him trying to use an alt to evade his previous ban.

Poet

[Zizou2]

I wouldn't bother.....The dude is completely stuck on size and logical arguments are lost him. No matter what you post he'll always bring it back to "well so and so only weighs X while so and so weighs Y".

He'll also be banned again real soon once the admins catch him trying to use an alt to evade his previous ban.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

Enjoy your ban Junior

[Zizou2]

Enjoy your ban Junior

What exactly have I done wrong?



I'm having a dicussion with GreatA and I respect his knowledge of the sport.

What is your problem? Why do you find a need to troll?

[Joeyzagz]

No more rigged than this:

Here are my thoughts on this matter....

1. Vitali is an ATG despite his lackluster resume'. 40-2 with 38 kos is pretty damn impressive. He is also clearly better than Wladimir Klitschko so wherever you rank his sister you have to put big Vit one step ahead.

2. Primo Carnera has an eerily similar style to Vitali so I do not see a "blowout" for either guy. Vitali will be evenly matched("size wise") for the first time since Timo Hoffman, and I predict the same result with Vitali winning a 12 round decision.

[StarshipTrooper]

What exactly have I done wrong?



I'm having a dicussion with GreatA and I respect his knowledge of the sport.

What is your problem? Why do you find a need to troll?

Pointing out the facts isn't trolling:

Everything DOES come back to weight with you.....FACT.
You HAVE been banned within the past few days.....FACT.
You ARE using an alt to evade your ban.....FACT.
People who use alts to evade bans ARE rebanned when the admins discover it.....FACT.

[TheGreatA]

Does Carnera have a victory over a fighter greater at Heavyweight than Lennox Lewis? NO.

Did I claim he had? He did have a win over a fighter as good as Chris Byrd in Jack Sharkey. The fact is that Vitali lost to the two best opponents he ever faced. That's in the records books.

You seem to forget Vitali was winning that fight even though he took the fight on less than 2 weeks notice.

I haven't forgotten anything. Vitali was training to fight Cedric Boswell on the undercard in a showcase fight for a future Vitali-Lewis match and claimed he had prepared to fight Lennox Lewis for all his life. He wasn't unprepared by any means. In fact it was Lennox Lewis who came in at the heaviest weight of his whole career, even including the terrible effort against Rahman where he was knocked out with one punch.

Primo fought three opponents in one week.

He has defeated many top contenders and is willing to fight any. Not his fault the likes of Haye and Povetkin are representative of today's prima dona heavyweight division.

If five is many.

Baer only defeated 1 man over 250 pounds and that was glass jawed Carnera. Louis defeated 3; Abe Simon, Buddy Baer both members of the "Bum of the Month Club". Also holds a W over Carnera.

He also knocked out 6'9, 245 lb Jose Santa. Clearly he could knock out men both big and small.

Vitali has stoppage wins against 37 men who weigh more than 220 pounds. He was leading against Chris Byrd until injury forced him to stop.

He was leading but wasn't about to score a KO, which is what we were talking about.

Baer went the distance with 183 pound fighters. Where was his power than?
Louis went the distance with 179 pound Bob Pastor. Not to mention he was thoroughly outboxed by blown up LHW Charles.

You can't KO what you can't hit.

If Vitali fought blown up LHW's like Pascal and Dawson, I guarantee a 1 punch KO.

He fought blown up LHW Chris Byrd.

Considering Carnera's history, it seems likely Vitali will drop him numerous times.

Carnera was stopped by two of the hardest hitters ever in his prime. If Vitali stops him, it would be in the late rounds due to an accumulation of punishment as usual.

Not the best by any strech of the imagination but certainly greater than Carnera's.

How so?

No. Carnera was a mess and knocked into ***** street by Baer all night. His ankle certainly didnt do him any favours.

It didn't, atleast you finally admit that. There are very few fighters who ever continued fighting after a broken ankle, see Nigel Benn vs Steve Collins I or Michael Grant vs Jameel McCline.

Sorry? What was that??

You are comparing Carnera's underworld rigged fights to Vitali??



It's well known Carnera was used by the mob and as his resume suggests, he probably has more bums on his resume than any heavyweight champ in history.

Carnera's supposed "underworld" fights weren't any different from the average built up prospect today. Valuev's record is far, far worse. There are many fights of his on film and no sign of fixed fights.

Still doesn't justify the fact Carnera was involved in terribly 1 sided freakshow mismatches.

As were numerous other fighters, today and in the past.

I never claimed that the punch didn't land, only that there were su****ions and they are certainly entitled to them.

Well, the punch landed.

Paul Gallico, a respected New York sports writer, was an eyewitness to Carnera’s rise and fall. He said “there is probably no more scandalous, pitiful, incredible story in all the record of these last mad sports years than the tale of the living giant, a creature out of the legends of antiquity, who was made into a prize fighter.”

In his insightful “Book on Boxing,” Gallico wrote this about Carnera’s sad legacy: “Poor Primo! A giant in stature and strength, a terrible figure of a man, with the might of ten men, he was a helpless lamb among wolves who used him until there was nothing more left to use, until the last possible penny had been squeezed from his big carcass, and then abandoned him. His last days in the United States were spent alone in a hospital. One leg was paralyzed, the result of beatings taken around the head. None of the carrion birds who had picked him clean ever came back to see him or to help him.”

Carnera was also described as an invincible monster in the 1930's and there were plans to have a super heavyweight division due to him accidentally killing Ernie Schaaf in the ring. There are very little facts about Carnera's supposed "fixed fights", only a lot of unfounded speculation. Personally I don't think he needed to fix fights against tomato cans that he could knock over with one punch, and the high profile fights of his that are on film show no sign of being fixed. Thus I have to question these claims.

I'm sure there were some fights of his that looked like this:



But I can hardly blame Carnera for that. It's just how boxing is and always has been.

[Zizou2]

Did I claim he had? He did have a win over a fighter as good as Chris Byrd in Jack Sharkey. The fact is that Vitali lost to the two best opponents he ever faced. That's in the records books.

Loss to Lewis - Winning on all scorecards until injury forced him to stop
Loss to Bryd - Winning on all scorecard until injury forced him to stop

Yes. It is on his scorecard and certainly is a black mark on his record.

Jack Sharkey? Still not a greater Heavyweight than Lennox Lewis. Sharkey lost 5 of his last 8 bouts and was on the slide when Carnera defeated him.

I haven't forgotten anything. Vitali was training to fight Cedric Boswell on the undercard in a showcase fight for a future Vitali-Lewis match and claimed he had prepared to fight Lennox Lewis for all his life. He wasn't unprepared by any means. In fact it was Lennox Lewis who came in at the heaviest weight of his whole career, even including the terrible effort against Rahman where he was knocked out with one punch.

Not Vitali's fault that lewis chose to come in at that fault. Vitali took the fight on 10 days notice - FACT

Primo fought three opponents in one week.

Primo fought three bums in 1 week.

If five is many.

In the currect climate. Yes. It is.

He also knocked out 6'9, 245 lb Jose Santa. Clearly he could knock out men both big and small.

He's not bigger than 250, as we were discussing.

He could knock out men both big and small, but the majority of KO wins were over smaller men.

He was leading but wasn't about to score a KO, which is what we were talking about.

Regardless, Byrd is a slick, illusive fighter and it shouldnt be held against Vitali. Or are we going to hold Bob Paster against Louis?

You can't KO what you can't hit.

true.

He fought blown up LHW Chris Byrd.

Who weighed over 200 pounds. Charles weighed less than 185.

Carnera was stopped by two of the hardest hitters ever in his prime. If Vitali stops him, it would be in the late rounds due to an accumulation of punishment as usual.

That is your opinion.

How so?

Observation from the fights I've seen of both. Carnera never seemed to have the balance that Vitali has. Vitali is much more steady whereas Carnera had a tendency to wobble with his movement - poor dexterity.

It didn't, atleast you finally admit that. There are very few fighters who ever continued fighting after a broken ankle, see Nigel Benn vs Steve Collins I or Michael Grant vs Jameel McCline.

Still doesn't negate the fact he was pounded mercilessly by Baer.

Carnera's supposed "underworld" fights weren't any different from the average built up prospect today. Valuev's record is far, far worse. There are many fights of his on film and no sign of fixed fights.

Paul Gallico, a respected New York sports writer, was an eyewitness to Carnera’s rise and fall. He said “there is probably no more scandalous, pitiful, incredible story in all the record of these last mad sports years than the tale of the living giant, a creature out of the legends of antiquity, who was made into a prize fighter.”

In his insightful “Book on Boxing,” Gallico wrote this about Carnera’s sad legacy: “Poor Primo! A giant in stature and strength, a terrible figure of a man, with the might of ten men, he was a helpless lamb among wolves who used him until there was nothing more left to use, until the last possible penny had been squeezed from his big carcass, and then abandoned him. His last days in the United States were spent alone in a hospital. One leg was paralyzed, the result of beatings taken around the head. None of the carrion birds who had picked him clean ever came back to see him or to help him.”

You switched from comparing Carnera to Vitali and somehow brought Valuev's name into the equation.

Carnera's resume was rigged.

As were numerous other fighters, today and in the past.

Still doesn't justify it.

Well, the punch landed.

Many think it didnt.

Carnera was also described as an invincible monster in the 1930's and there were plans to have a super heavyweight division due to him accidentally killing Ernie Schaaf in the ring. There are very little facts about Carnera's supposed "fixed fights", only a lot of unfounded speculation. Personally I don't think he needed to fix fights against tomato cans that he could knock over with one punch, and the high profile fights of his that are on film show no sign of being fixed. Thus I have to question these claims.

I'm sure there were some fights of his that looked like this:



But I can hardly blame Carnera for that. It's just how boxing is and always has been.

Yep, as Paul Gallico has stated, he was certainly involved in many farce bouts. That kind of a circus act doesn't deserve any justification, past or present.

[Zizou2]

Pointing out the facts isn't trolling:

Everything DOES come back to weight with you.....FACT.
You HAVE been banned within the past few days.....FACT.
You ARE using an alt to evade your ban.....FACT.
People who use alts to evade bans ARE rebanned when the admins discover it.....FACT.