SBleeder's 100 All-time P4P List

[frankenfrank]

Since people didn't care for the pictures, I'll simply post my list. I'll follow up later with some explanations.

1. Ray Robinson

2. Muhammad Ali

3. Harry Greb

4. Sam Langford

5. Henry Armstrong

6. Willie Pep

7. Carlos Monzon

8. Ricardo Lopez

9. Joe Louis

10. Archie Moore

11. Pernell Whitaker

12. Benny Leonard

13. Eder Jofre

14. Joe Gans

15. Ray Leonard

16. Roberto Duran

17. Rocky Marciano

18. **** Tiger

19. Ezzard Charles

20. Tony Canzoneri

21. Bob Fitzsimmons

22. Jimmy Wilde

23. Wilfredo Gomez

24. George Foreman

25. Julio Ceasar Chavez Sr.

26. Gene Tunney

27. Marvin Hagler.

28. Vicente Saldivar

29. Panama Al Brown

30. Sandy Saddler

31. Jimmy McLarin

32. Joe Calzaghe

33. Gilberto Roman

34. Alexis Arguello

35. Barney Ross

36. Larry Holmes

37. Ike Williams

38. Thomas Hearns

39. Young Corbett III

40. Jack Dempsey

41. Emile Griffith

42. Roy Jones, Jr.

43. Rosendo Alvarez

44. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.

45. Duilio Loi

46. Abe Attell

47. Tommy Ryan

48. Mickey Walker

49. Sonny Liston

50. Manny Pacquiao

Langford below Ali and Greb is an insult.
Below Robinson is just wrong.
Foreman above Hagler and JCC ? really ?
Holmes at 36 ? yes he stopped Cooney but was outpointed by a lightheavy .
Liston at 49 ? above all the guys you put in 100-51 ? and above Pacquiao ?
And Arguello so much higher than DLH which you put below Hatton and Corrales ? damn .
But at least you compiled a list unlike all of those bragging turdheads .

[Toney616]

This is what happens when you Boxrec too much

The brain damage that prevented him from facing Calzaghe , it should have been known to someone like you whom some 90% of his knowledge is about the MW-SMW divisions of the 90s , Collins collapsed during his training camp for his supposed fight against Calzaghe when the winner should have gotten a shot at Roy Jones , the one who landed that final blow was Howard Eastman if I'm not wrong , I am not a great e-searcher , and esb , like bs restricted
the search of one's posts to a mere last 500 , so I know if I will try to dig deep in my account there , I will still not find it.
But it is quite of a known fact , especially to someone like you , who uses so many other sources than just a boxrec , always a surprise when a boxrec warrior like myself catches the likes of you , great boxing historian , off guard :yep: , you should really be ashamed of yourself and do your homework next time before trying to argue with me.

At least I know some period of boxing, which is much more than you do

As for the rest of your post, what are you going on about?
First point:
You still have not quoted any source or reliable link, so I have to assume that you are just quoting another users post, which I am sure you are doing
Second point:
The was no sparring session for any Calzaghe fight, Collins made it quite clear that he would only come out of retirement to fight Jones, no one else.
It was Lou Dibella in 1999 (the president of HBO), that suggested that Collins should fight Calzaghe at some point on a Jones undercard in order to create interest for a possible Jones showdown
Third point:
The negotiations for a possible Jones-Collins fight took place in 1999, so are you trying to say that because Collins collapsed during a IMAGINARY SPARRING SESSION in 1999 that meant he was brain damaged in 1996?

Lou Dibella 1999:

"There would be little or no interest in Collins v Jones in America. Collins has not fought in a year and a half and although he was a very good champion there would not be a great deal of interest in him in America at the moment. If he wants to fight someone else before Roy Jones then interest may pick up.
"I would like to see Collins fight Joe Calzaghe, who holds Collins' former super middleweight crown. Calzaghe is an exciting fighter, whom we have earmarked to fight Roy Jones at some stage. At the moment Reggie Johnson, the IBF light heavyweight champion, is the one who I feel most deserves a shot at Jones. However, if Collins was to fight Calazaghe possibly on a Jones undercard, then the winner could meet Jones in their next contest," said Dibella.
The likelihood of Collins fighting anyone but Jones is slim, given that he has consistently said that he would only come out of retirement to meet Jones.

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer.../15/fshead.htm

[frankenfrank]

What are you going on about?
First point:
You still have not quoted any source or reliable link, so I have to assume that you are just quoting another users post, which I am sure you are doing

That poster also provided me with a link to that source which is now lost because of BS's and ESB's searching policy , try contacting lucatoni008 or something , he is that poster .
But I think he too has posted more than 500 posts since then.
Shame on you for not knowing that and even doubting my claims for not the first time.

Second point:
The was no sparring session for any Calzaghe fight, Collins made it quite clear that he would only come out of retirement to fight Jones, no one else.

As I wrote , if he won against Calzaghe he was supposed to get Jones ,
I think it happened during his preparations to fight Calzaghe at 1997 ,
where did I claim it was 1999 , and what made you think I did ?
And why do you think Collins retired at a mere 33 ?

It was Lou Dibella in 1999 (the president of HBO), that suggested that Collins should fight Calzaghe at some point on a Jones undercard in order to create interest for a possible Jones showdown

So maybe it was then. But I did not mention any year prior to this current post of yours.

Third point:
The negotiations for a possible Jones-Collins fight took place in 1999, so are you trying to say that because Collins collapsed during a IMAGINARY SPARRING SESSION in 1999 that meant he was brain damaged in 1996?

Lou Dibella 1999:

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer.../15/fshead.htm

Again , Shame on you for not knowing such a fact and doubting my claims ,
blame ESB for me being unable to bring you your so called evidence , and my
and yours poor internet searching skills .

[Toney616]

This is what happens when you believe watch boxrec instead of fights

I don't think having your head dead has a lot to do with having weak feet.
Benn was weak , not because he was shot , Benn was stopped in his prime also , Collins would have always beaten him.

What are you going on about? He twisted his ankle, something which I'm sure happens in a lot of sports and now you are telling me it happened to Benn because he was WEAK?. The guy fights and beats Barkley, Eubank II(Benn should of got the nod, even Eubank admits that), Dewitt and McClellan and you are now telling me his weak? because a fighter gets stopped doesnt mean they are weak, it could just mean they fought a better fighter. Are Hearns and Duran weak according to your logic as well?

How would Collins beat Benn in his prime exactly? He boxing skills were never that good and he was a "light" puncher

Tony Thornton was a decent fighter , maybe not a top 20 all time MW
(oops , I forgot , you don't do lists) , but a durable quality opponent during his prime.

Tony Thornton was a full time post man that boxed on the side, his moniker was "the punching Postman" for crying out loud
Doing the Boxrec thing:
Doug DeWitt L
Steve Collins L
Merqui Sosa W
Chris Eubank L
James Toney L
Roy Jones Jr L
final record: 37-7-1, never won a legit belt
1-5 against the best opponents he ever faced

I meant McCallum possibly caused a significant part of the damage done to Watson and Collins

No he didnt. It was the way Watsons head hit the lower rope, that caused the blood clot during the Watson-Eubank II fight, stop quoting other peoples posts

I did watch McCallum-Collins , and McCallum did beat him in the beginning , what happened later in the fight does not take a lot from the damage he took early in the fight.

Stop
McCallum at that point in his career simply didn't have the stamina to outwork his younger, naturally bigger opponents. So what he would try and do is too slow the pace down and outbox his younger opponent, which he did against Collins. he tired from round 6 onwards, which is why Collins was able to come back into the fight. It was Collins constant pressure and workrate that bothered McCallum during the last half of that fight. Collins never took a bad beating in that fight Or maybe it was the imaginary beating he took which gave Collins imaginary brain damage during a imaginary sparring session in 1999?

[Toney616]

This is what happens when you believe everything typed on the internet

That poster also provided me with a link to that source which is now lost because of BS's and ESB's searching policy , try contacting lucatoni008 or something , he is that poster .
But I think he too has posted more than 500 posts since then.
Shame on you for not knowing that and even doubting my claims for not the first time.

Great, no source, cant find it, but I should believe it because you said another imaginary poster said it? Ok then
I know you are lying anyway it was the Weebler who said that he was sparring with Eastman when he had his IMAGINARY blackout and he never posted up any link either

How about this, if you cant back up your dubious claims then don't mention them

As I wrote , if he won against Calzaghe he was supposed to get Jones ,
I think it happened during his preparations to fight Calzaghe at 1997 ,
where did I claim it was 1999 , and what made you think I did ?
And why do you think Collins retired at a mere 33 ?

Steve Collins, the World Boxing Organisation super-middle-weight champion, yesterday announced his retirement from boxing. The Irishman, who had pulled out of his title defence against Joe Calzaghe which was due to take place in Sheffield on Saturday week, made the announcement at the British Boxing Awards ceremony in Bloomsbury, central London.

Collins, accepting the award for Best Overseas Boxer, said: "I don't have the motivation that I once had.

"My only way to carry on was to fight Roy Jones, the WBC [World Boxing Council] light heavyweight champion, but as there is no chance of that happening now, the only route I have is to retire.

"The fight that would have kept me in boxing was against Roy Jones. But he has ducked me for two years, even though Frank Warren, my promoter, did everything to make it happen."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/b...t-1233703.html
Does this sound like his retiring due to lack of motivation or imaginary brain damage?

Roy Jones moved up to lhw and fought Mike McCallum in 1996-11-22 for the interm wbc belt
Collins was scheduled to fight Calzaghe for the wbo smw in 1997-10-11
How does Collins defending his wbo smw put him in a positon to fight Jones at lhw exactly?

So maybe it was then. But I did not mention any year prior to this current post of yours.

The only time there was any serious discussion for a fight was in 1999, not 1997. It was in 1999 that Levin was given the go ahead to make the fight happen

Again , Shame on you for not knowing such a fact

Its a fact because an imaginary poster said it was?

[frankenfrank]

What are you going on about? He twisted his ankle, something which I'm sure happens in a lot of sports and now you are telling me it happened to Benn because he was WEAK?. The guy fights and beats Barkley, Eubank II(Benn should of got the nod, even Eubank admits that), Dewitt and McClellan and you are now telling me his weak? because a fighter gets stopped doesnt mean they are weak, it could just mean they fought a better fighter. Are Hearns and Duran weak according to your logic as well?

If you watched the McClellan fight you would have known the corrupt referee had a lot to do with Benn's ability to survive the early onslaught and same for Benn's holding and hitting behind the head .

[SBleeder]

I thought I'd get more heat for Ricardo Lopez than for anything else.


On a side note, I hate being in the red...

[Toney616]

If you watched the McClellan fight you would have known the corrupt referee had a lot to do with Benn's ability to survive the early onslaught and same for Benn's holding and hitting behind the head .

The ref was incompetent, not corrupt. Benn tainted the win with his rabbit punching (which he did in a lot of his fights- Eubank II comes to mind). Even if he didnt foul in that fight then the fight would of played out the same way anyway. Its still a legit win for Benn

[frankenfrank]

The ref was incompetent, not corrupt. Benn tainted the win with his rabbit punching (which he did in a lot of his fights- Eubank II comes to mind). Even if he didnt foul in that fight then the fight would of played out the same way anyway. Its still a legit win for Benn

No. You are biased if you claim this claim after admitting both facts about the ref and Benn's fouling.

[Toney616]

No. You are biased if you claim this claim after admitting both facts about the ref and Benn's fouling.

If you are going to accuse someone of being corrupt then you are going to have to present some form of proof. You cant just say that guy did a bad job so he must on been "on the take". How many other fights which Asaro refereed in have you seen?

As for Benn's fouling, yes he fouled, but you are making it out as if it was consistent fouling used as a form of strategy. As I said before the fight plays out the same way without the fouling (with Asaro as the ref)