Jack Dempsey or Harry Greb?

[JAB5239]

from the reading i've done on the time period it seems that the perceived level of interest trumped the actual possibility of the two fighting


sure people might have wanted to see it, but there wasn't really much of a window where it seemed like an appropriate fight for dempsey's world title.


those who were around during the period have, universally it seems, recognized that greb was perceived as a real threat to dempsey
but not to the level where it appeared dempsey was outright ducking a MW (a great one, obviously, but no more than a MW in his prime)


rid**** bowe tossing his belts in the trash to avoid getting knocked out again by lennox lewis (lewis stopped him in the amateurs)
now that's ducking somebody


dempsey via UD
possibly a late / midround kayo
greb was tough and fast and durable
but so was dempsey, guys. lets not forget how hard he punched or how fast he was of foot and especially of hand.

You have to remember that Greb was beating top heavyweights and trying to get a fight with Dempsey even before he became champion.

In March of 1920 rumors were swirling of a Dempsey-Greb fight. While getting ready for Billy Miske (a fighter Greb already had beaten more than once) Dempsey used Greb as a sparring partner and Greb destroyed him. In 1921 more rumors circulated about Dempsey fighting Greb, but to no avail.

In 1922 Dempsey said ""It is possible that I might get a match with Harry Greb," he said, "and if I do and there is a call or a demand for it, I surely will take it." Well there was plenty of call for this fight but Dempsey chose to give his sparring partner (who Greb had beaten) Jimmy Darcy a payday in a non title fight instead.

A month later Dempsey said "Manager Kearns Says They Will Meet Outdoors in Philadelphia in 8-Round Bout.


"Dempsey will probably return home in time to take on Harry Greb in an eight-round, no-decision affair outdoors in Philadelphia. I am reliably told the public really wants the affair to be brought off, and we would like to see Harry make some money, even if he gets mussed up a bit in doing it, to convince him that the best middleweight isn't heavy enough for the big fellow in the game." But the fight still never came off.

You have to remember that Greb beat Tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Darcy, Brennan, Miske, Levinski, Meehan and Gunboat Smith as well as being ducked by Georges Carpentier. These are all fighters that Dempsey would go on to also fight or already fought.

There was plenty of occasion for this fight to come off, Dempsey and his manager just didn't want any part of Greb hence the quote from from Kearns (and this is not verbatim, I will have to dig it back up) "Forget that little seven year itch, we don't want no part of him".

[New England]

You have to remember that Greb was beating top heavyweights and trying to get a fight with Dempsey even before he became champion.

In March of 1920 rumors were swirling of a Dempsey-Greb fight. While getting ready for Billy Miske (a fighter Greb already had beaten more than once) Dempsey used Greb as a sparring partner and Greb destroyed him. In 1921 more rumors circulated about Dempsey fighting Greb, but to no avail.

In 1922 Dempsey said ""It is possible that I might get a match with Harry Greb," he said, "and if I do and there is a call or a demand for it, I surely will take it." Well there was plenty of call for this fight but Dempsey chose to give his sparring partner (who Greb had beaten) Jimmy Darcy a payday in a non title fight instead.

A month later Dempsey said "Manager Kearns Says They Will Meet Outdoors in Philadelphia in 8-Round Bout.


"Dempsey will probably return home in time to take on Harry Greb in an eight-round, no-decision affair outdoors in Philadelphia. I am reliably told the public really wants the affair to be brought off, and we would like to see Harry make some money, even if he gets mussed up a bit in doing it, to convince him that the best middleweight isn't heavy enough for the big fellow in the game." But the fight still never came off.

You have to remember that Greb beat Tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Darcy, Brennan, Miske, Levinski, Meehan and Gunboat Smith as well as being ducked by Georges Carpentier. These are all fighters that Dempsey would go on to also fight or already fought.

There was plenty of occasion for this fight to come off, Dempsey and his manager just didn't want any part of Greb hence the quote from from Kearns (and this is not verbatim, I will have to dig it back up) "Forget that little seven year itch, we don't want no part of him".

the first bold is really the sort of conjecture i was talking about. being perceived as a possible opponent and a competitive one (which i'm sure he would have been) is different from a guy who is perceived as having explicitly earned the right to fight for the world HW title

there wasn't a huge calling for greb to get a shot at the HW championship of the world that dempsey was only defending twice a year at the most

not to the point where he was perceived as outright more deserving than the other top flight (and larger) guys dempsey was defending against

nobody thought "oh, dempsey is ducking greb, then,"
certainly not from what i've read. in fact, from what i've read, that reaction would be reserved for the nsb'ers of 1923ish


not to mention dempsey only defended a grand total of 6 times before losing it to tunney (off the memory, boxrec could prove me wrong and say it was 7 or 8)

over a period from '19-26
with a huge layoff in defenses from 24-26 i believe

greb would have been a huge dog

[JAB5239]

the first bold is really the sort of conjecture i was talking about. being perceived as a possible opponent and a competitive one (which i'm sure he would have been) is different from a guy who is perceived as having explicitly earned the right to fight for the world HW title

there wasn't a huge calling for greb to get a shot at the HW championship of the world that dempsey was only defending twice a year at the most

not to the point where he was perceived as outright more deserving than the other top flight (and larger) guys dempsey was defending against

nobody thought "oh, dempsey is ducking greb, then,"
certainly not from what i've read. in fact, from what i've read, that reaction would be reserved for the nsb'ers of 1923ish


not to mention dempsey only defended a grand total of 6 times before losing it to tunney (off the memory, boxrec could prove me wrong and say it was 7 or 8)

over a period from '19-26
with a huge layoff in defenses from 24-26 i believe

greb would have been a huge dog

The point is my friend, that Dempsey took on less deserving fighters that Greb had already beaten including Gibbons in 1923 who Greb had beaten in 1922. Darcy in 1922, who Greb had twice beaten in 1921, Carpentier who shamelessly ducked Greb, Brennan in 1920, who Greb beat the year before and Miske, who had Brights disease, lost to Greb a year earlier AND had already lost to Dempsey. Size should not be playing a part in it when one guy has already beaten everyone the champion is choosing to fight instead of him. I can't think of another heavyweight so highly thought of that has fought so many retreads instead of the guy who had already beaten them, or avoided his number one contender for 6 years. Can you? Now if Greb hadn't earned the right to fight Dempsey, what in the world did these guys do to get a shot?

Dempsey was a great fighter, and an icon of his times, but these are things that are way overlooked to maintain that iconic image in my opinion.

[New England]

The point is my friend, that Dempsey took on less deserving fighters that Greb had already beaten including Gibbons in 1923 who Greb had beaten in 1922. Darcy in 1922, who Greb had twice beaten in 1921, Carpentier who shamelessly ducked Greb, Brennan in 1920, who Greb beat the year before and Miske, who had Brights disease, lost to Greb a year earlier AND had already lost to Dempsey. Size should not be playing a part in it when one guy has already beaten everyone the champion is choosing to fight instead of him. I can't think of another heavyweight so highly thought of that has fought so many retreads instead of the guy who had already beaten them, or avoided his number one contender for 6 years. Can you? Now if Greb hadn't earned the right to fight Dempsey, what in the world did these guys do to get a shot?

Dempsey was a great fighter, and an icon of his times, but these are things that are way overlooked to maintain that iconic image in my opinion.

the only HW fitting the bill are the K brothers, and they wont fight on account of the fact that they are brothers


i'm not going to call him a number one contender if that's what you're implying

or say that dempsey was ducking greb

and certainly his handlers were making a judgement of the risks and possible rewards of fighting greb for the title, and decided it wasn't worth it
it's a no win situation, really, more than a win win
if you win, they can (and "they" will) detract from your win by saying "well, he's only a MW" (whether appropriate or not,) detracting from its value
and if you lose, you're out of luck. you lost with a stacked deck and are seen as clearly inferior.

not defending the move because it was good for boxing
i'm saying it's easy to see how the fight wasn't very appealing to them (also considering that greb had a rough tyle to look good against, and has a reputation as perhaps the dirtiest fighter to ever "lace" up )


i see where you're coming from
but i still don't see an outright and undeniable duck a la rid**** bowe and lennox lewis


or bradley and khan .... OHHHHH he didn't!

[JAB5239]

the only HW fitting the bill are the K brothers, and they wont fight on account of the fact that they are brothers


i'm not going to call him a number one contender if that's what you're implying

or say that dempsey was ducking greb

and certainly his handlers were making a judgement of the risks and possible rewards of fighting greb for the title, and decided it wasn't worth it
it's a no win situation, really, more than a win win
if you win, they can (and "they" will) detract from your win by saying "well, he's only a MW" (whether appropriate or not,) detracting from its value
and if you lose, you're out of luck. you lost with a stacked deck and are seen as clearly inferior.

not defending the move because it was good for boxing
i'm saying it's easy to see how the fight wasn't very appealing to them (also considering that greb had a rough tyle to look good against, and has a reputation as perhaps the dirtiest fighter to ever "lace" up )


i see where you're coming from
but i still don't see an outright and undeniable duck a la rid**** bowe and lennox lewis


or bradley and khan .... OHHHHH he didn't!

We'll have to agree to disagree than. On a side note.....Gene Tunney thought very highly of Greb and his skills and has claimed Harry was not a dirty fighter unless his opponent started the dirty tactics. That quote can most notably be backed up in the Norfolk fight where Greb was DQ"d by a ref that had lost control of both fighters, but with the boxing commissioner and most fans agreeing Norfolk started the rough stuff. Mind you I am not excusing Greb of anything, he wasn't a choir boy by any stretch. But I don't think he was as bad as many make him out to be.

[i_am_a_champ]

Dempsey was slapped around by Greb in a sparring session. Documented.
Dempsey and his manager wanted no peice of Greb. Documented.

Greb was one of a kind.

Rip Greb
Rip Dempsey.

[MonsieurGeorges]

I agree with most all of what has been said here about Greb, there is no doubt he was a real threat. I think Kearns didn't want a piece of Greb, and Dempsey himself probably knew it would be no cakewalk but once they get in the ring and Dempsey starts snarling and fighting for his life, I don't see a smaller man being able to hang with him in the clinches late in the fight. Dempsey would have to be fully healthy, not the champagne and cheesecake Dempsey.Once again, if it was like 6 rounds Greb would surely walk away with it.

Dempsey would get ran all around and get peppered at first but I think his instincts will kick in, he would literally "wrestle" Greb into position and start jolting him hard. It wouldn't be pretty, may not even be 100% legal but JD would probably find that it would be the only way to really lay into Greb who moved so well. That, or maybe trapped in the ropes/corner

in the last 3 rounds I just see Dempsey literally charging him back in the clinches, trapping his arms and landing something short and impossible to see. Dempsey had unique talent in clinches and I think that would make all the difference. Greb would get right in his kitchen and it would be a war, but if JD is healthy and its 15 rounds I would be shocked it didn't go his way but stranger things have happened.

[New England]

We'll have to agree to disagree than. On a side note.....Gene Tunney thought very highly of Greb and his skills and has claimed Harry was not a dirty fighter unless his opponent started the dirty tactics. That quote can most notably be backed up in the Norfolk fight where Greb was DQ"d by a ref that had lost control of both fighters, but with the boxing commissioner and most fans agreeing Norfolk started the rough stuff. Mind you I am not excusing Greb of anything, he wasn't a choir boy by any stretch. But I don't think he was as bad as many make him out to be.

lol we can agree too disagree

he's the pittsburgh windmill haha

he hit a guy with everything but the ring post

he was a rough rough customer


and i've heard a similar account of the norfolk fight

from the pittsburgh papers haha!


he's reputed to be dirty enough from enough people // sources where i don't need to see that with my own eye

[Greatest1942]

the only HW fitting the bill are the K brothers, and they wont fight on account of the fact that they are brothers


i'm not going to call him a number one contender if that's what you're implying

or say that dempsey was ducking greb

and certainly his handlers were making a judgement of the risks and possible rewards of fighting greb for the title, and decided it wasn't worth it
it's a no win situation, really, more than a win win
if you win, they can (and "they" will) detract from your win by saying "well, he's only a MW" (whether appropriate or not,) detracting from its value
and if you lose, you're out of luck. you lost with a stacked deck and are seen as clearly inferior.

not defending the move because it was good for boxing
i'm saying it's easy to see how the fight wasn't very appealing to them (also considering that greb had a rough tyle to look good against, and has a reputation as perhaps the dirtiest fighter to ever "lace" up )


i see where you're coming from
but i still don't see an outright and undeniable duck a la rid**** bowe and lennox lewis


or bradley and khan .... OHHHHH he didn't!

"but i still don't see an outright and undeniable duck a la rid**** bowe and lennox lewis"

Or as Dempsey ducking Willis...

[GJC]

"but i still don't see an outright and undeniable duck a la rid**** bowe and lennox lewis"

Or as Dempsey ducking Willis...

Comes down to risk vs reward and there was no win side for Dempsey fighting Greb I think.