Jack Dempsey or Harry Greb?

[mickey malone]

The earliest reference i've seen to Greb's calling out Jack is in 1918, before Dempsey was even champion. This was directly after one of Greb's wins over Battling Levinksy, who Greb would beat six (i think?) times out of six. Greb's challanged went unanswered and Dempsey matched Levinsky in Novemeber of that year, knocking him out in three - Greb wasn't boxing in Novemeber due to injury, but was busy again in January, Dempsey - deliberately or not - having by-passed Greb in favour of a fighter Greb had proven his superiority too and then treading water until his challange against Willard. Greb remained busy, never knowing what it meant for a fighter to rest on his laurels.

Greb's run at the HW title had begun with Willard in possesion of the title. In 1918 he had beaten Billy Miske, but it was 1919 that he would really stake his claim, against Bill Brennan, described by the Pittsburgh Post as "the best man in his class in the country[outside of Jack Dempsey]". The two met first in New York in Febuary - Greb was Brennan's total master, some papers scoring this fight a shut-out. Brennan apparantly was claiming that he was out of condition for this fight, and Greb being Greb, a re-match was granted. The Pittsburgh Post's headline for that fight: "Bill Brennan Beaten In Every Round". In spite of every concievable advantage in terms of size - height, reach and weight - Brennan was not in the fight, he was totally dominated.

The two met again 16 months before Dempsey would match Brennan for the HW title. Again, the fight was a one sided beating. The New York Times and the Washington Post both gave Greb "every single round". Frankly, it seems Brennan was not in Greb's class...but the title shot would go to Brennan.Brennan would tell journalist Paul Kennedy that "if Dempsey was fighting [Greb] instead of me, I would be on Greb" after his eventual fight with Jack.


It seems that there was work afoot to bring the two together almost as soon as Dempsey lifted his title, with promoters Jimmy Shelvin anbd Matt Hinkle both trying to land the fight. The Pittsburgh Post: "It is up to Dempsey. And it is going to be difficult for Dempsey to say "Go get a reputation for Greb's fought four fights to Dempsey's one, and licked as many, if not more HW's." The fight, of course, didn't come off. Instead, Greb would fight Miske, who Greb had already beaten a couple of times, including a fight that went 8-1-1 in Greb's favour according the Pittsburgh Post...is anyone finding this disturbing yet? Dempsey's decisions to match men that Greb has already crushed instead of Greb himself seems bizzare to me...


And it's not over yet. After apparently mastering Dempsey in sparring, Greb would crush Gibbons "manhandled him gleefully and semed to get a deal of satisfaction out of it", and he also did better against Meehan than Demspey did.


Miske, Brennan and Gibbons all get title shots


But no title fight for Greb.

Why not?



Greb was possibly a better HW than Dempsey, never mind a better fighter.

I agree!!!... Dempsey ducked Greb.

[Jim Jeffries]

I'm not going to penalize a guy just because there isn't any footage of him fighting, 84 to 97 years ago. Greb has by far the better resume, and even though he was a MW, fought guys all the way to HW. I believe there was a reason Dempsey didn't want to fight him.

[phallus]

greb was maybe the greatest middleweight of all time, with only one eye he was beating the elite fighters of his time. a lot of fighters ducked greb, it took a very long time to get his title shot because johnny wilson didn't want to fight him

[McGoorty]

Dempsey would beat any fighter in history with the exception of Cassius Clay... he would beat Foreman, Holmes, Louis, Liston, Marciano, Frazier, Tyson, Holyfield & the Klitschko brothers..

He'd give all of them problems, but I don't see any Sharkey's, Willard's or Carpentier's on that list.. Holmes was just like a bigger version of Gene Tunney with a very similar style, so I wouldn't rate Jack's chances in that one..

Head-To-Head - Greb dont have the legs or scientific ability of Gene Tunney so would have to fight Dempsey and like i said above, "no one could fight a prime Jack Dempsey" he was to ferocious with ko power in both fists as well as excellent fighting ability, Dempsey would KO Greb

I don't think he was quite as good as you say he was, but yes, he'd stand a good chance of knocking out Greb, but judging by the comparisons that I made in the opening post, it wouldn't have been 'out of the question' that Greb would have quite possibly taken him the distance.. Especially if it was one of Dempsey's cushy 4 rounders, or a 10 round defense of his title..

DEMPSEY was a great Heavyweight, for a Cruiser. He was THE Best Heavyweight of the 20's, he let himself go to pot, the Real Dempsey would've destroyed Tunney, another Cruiser who punched above his weight. Harry Greb was the greatest Middleweight of the 20's but with a career Kayo percentage of 16. something he was totally outgunned in destructive power, Greb destroyed 48 men and messed up many more and powerful enough at MW but we are talkin' a whole new different thing, Dempsey hit like a Truck.

[MonsieurGeorges]

Both in their prime?

Dempsey would get to Greb eventually. Greb could give him problems but doesn't have enough weight for Dempsey. Later in the fight Dempsey would be too much in the clinches.

If it was 5 or 6 rounds I would say Greb but not in a 15 rounder with healthy, prime Jack Dempsey

[JAB5239]

Both in their prime?

Dempsey would get to Greb eventually. Greb could give him problems but doesn't have enough weight for Dempsey. Later in the fight Dempsey would be too much in the clinches.

If it was 5 or 6 rounds I would say Greb but not in a 15 rounder with healthy, prime Jack Dempsey

You could be right, who knows? But Dempsey didn't want to take the chance instead fighting guys Greb had already beaten or who had ducked him, even though there was great interest in this fight.

[McGoorty]

Dempsey - World heavyweight champion 1919-1926
Greb - World middleweight champion 1923-1926

Al these fights happened between 1918 and 1923:-

Battling Levinski - Lost to Greb x3 (pts).. Lost to Dempsey x1 (ko3)

Billy Miske - Lost to Greb x1 (pts).. Lost to Dempsey x2 (pts & ko3)

Homer Smith - Lost to Greb x1 (ko7).. Lost to Dempsey x1 (ko1)

Jimmy Darcy - Lost to Greb x1 (pts).. Lost to Dempsey x1 (pts)

Tommy Gibbons - Lost to Greb x1 (pts).. Lost to Dempsey x1 (pts)

Gun Boat Smith - Lost to Greb x1 (ko1).. Lost to Dempsey x1 (ko2)

Bill Brennan - Lost to Greb x1 (pts).. Lost to Dempsey x1 (ko12)

Willie Meehan - Lost Greb x1 (pts).. Beat Dempsey x1 (pts)

But they never fought each other ?????????????????

Who was greater?

You've got me there, Greb fought bigger guys for sure, but Dempsey was a virtual CW who destroyed 2 giants, I mean GIANTS and he nearly kills them. Dempsey pound for pound was twice as big a puncher as Harry was NO knockout artist. BUT Grebs resume is way better so p4p he's the greater boxer. As for a head to head confrontation it'd be a massacre, if anyone told someone in the early 20's that Greb would beat Dempsey, that guy would be taken away by men in white coats. I would have Greb going about 4 rd's at least but Jack would nail him, and once that happened Greb would've had another KO loss against his resume. To think otherwise is to go against boxing trends that have stayed true to this day.

[New England]

lol


greb via resume stomp
brutal

[McGoorty]

Yes, I am. On your history section it would be classed as a joke question, but the history section here isn't as refined. Diversity of opinion is fairly rife where these 2 are concerned. I'm of the opinion that Dempsey is overrated, but there are other posters who believe he'd clear out the heavies of today.. And with regard to Greb, there's the odd couple on here who refer to him as a fictional character, this mainly being due to the lack of footage on him..
I'm not in any way critiscising your history section, as most of the posts are started by your goodself and state all the facts to begin with, thus setting the standards for a more ballanced debate. Where as on here, people just "come out with things" so yes, I am serious (to begin with lol)

And I do apologize for not posting for a while, I will visit again shortly.

Dempsey would clean out the Cruiserweight division on his way to winning about 5 different CW titles, run out of opponents who'd face him and be CW champ until retirement. Jack is no HW by todays standards. The two "V's" may bore some and cop it from some fans but they'd destroy Willard and Firpo easily, Dempsey would have to fight them ????????

[New England]

You could be right, who knows? But Dempsey didn't want to take the chance instead fighting guys Greb had already beaten or who had ducked him, even though there was great interest in this fight.

from the reading i've done on the time period it seems that the perceived level of interest trumped the actual possibility of the two fighting


sure people might have wanted to see it, but there wasn't really much of a window where it seemed like an appropriate fight for dempsey's world title.


those who were around during the period have, universally it seems, recognized that greb was perceived as a real threat to dempsey
but not to the level where it appeared dempsey was outright ducking a MW (a great one, obviously, but no more than a MW in his prime)


rid**** bowe tossing his belts in the trash to avoid getting knocked out again by lennox lewis (lewis stopped him in the amateurs)
now that's ducking somebody


dempsey via UD
possibly a late / midround kayo
greb was tough and fast and durable
but so was dempsey, guys. lets not forget how hard he punched or how fast he was of foot and especially of hand.