Jack Dempsey or Harry Greb?

[StarshipTrooper]

Yes, I just took a look at him, and he is a dead ringer for Galento..

Ok, Dempsey had quite a few draws and 6 defeats, most of which he avenged in brutal fashion, but the 1918 loss, sticks out like a sore thumb.. Only 2 months prior to this defeat, Dempsey had destroyed Fred Fulton in less than a round, and then 2 months after losing to Meehan, blitzed Battling Levinski in 3 which if Meehan was a bum, doesn't make a shred of sense.. All in all, Dempsey fought 20 rounds against this guy, and may have won 8 of them if he was lucky. How on earth could this have happened?

All of Dempsey's fights with Meehan were 4 round fights AND Meehan was the hometown fighter in all of them as well.

Poet

[mickey malone]

All of Dempsey's fights with Meehan were 4 round fights AND Meehan was the hometown fighter in all of them as well.

Poet

So he destroys Fulton, Levinsky, Willard and Firpo easily in under 4..
You'll have to excuse my sarcasm, but was this because they were fighting in Dempsey's back yard?.. I know being the hometown fighter has it's advantages, but I still don't see Butterbean beating Lennox Lewis in Bay City for example.. I'm getting the impression here, that Meehan was infact, an extremely clever boxer over 4 rounds and doesn't receive any credit for his achievements.

[StarshipTrooper]

So he destroys Fulton, Levinsky, Willard and Firpo easily in under 4..
You'll have to excuse my sarcasm, but was this because they were fighting in Dempsey's back yard?.. I know being the hometown fighter has it's advantages, but I still don't see Butterbean beating Lennox Lewis in Bay City for example.. I'm getting the impression here, that Meehan was infact, an extremely clever boxer over 4 rounds and doesn't receive any credit for his achievements.

When you get the KO you don't have to worry about the cards but you can't always expect to get the KO especially when you're in with a spoiler and in a 4 round fight all bets are off if it goes to the cards. Hometown nods were a lot more common a hundred years ago btw; even so you see some agregious ones even today.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

I know being the hometown fighter has it's advantages, but I still don't see Butterbean beating Lennox Lewis in Bay City for example.

Bear in mind too that if the Pinklon Thomas fight had been a 4 rounder Mike Tyson would have lost.

Poet

[CarlosG815]

Bear in mind too that if the Pinklon Thomas fight had been a 4 rounder Mike Tyson would have lost.

Poet

Maybe Frank Bruno 1 as well.

[mickey malone]

Bear in mind too that if the Pinklon Thomas fight had been a 4 rounder Mike Tyson would have lost.

Poet

But if Mike Tyson new he only had 4 rounds in which to finish him then I'm sure he would have fought a different fight.. Besides, Pinky doesn't get called a fat bum etc.. Spoiler is about the most complimentary thing i've ever heard said about Meehan.
On Greb's website, it mentions that Dempsey was only able to beat him in one fight out of 5, and that 4 rounds was all he was good for.. If I was writting that article, I'd be objective enough to say that a big question mark hung over the fact that Dempsey was unable to handle him over 4..

[StarshipTrooper]

But if Mike Tyson new he only had 4 rounds in which to finish him then I'm sure he would have fought a different fight.. Besides, Pinky doesn't get called a fat bum etc.. Spoiler is about the most complimentary thing i've ever heard said about Meehan.
On Greb's website, it mentions that Dempsey was only able to beat him in one fight out of 5, and that 4 rounds was all he was good for.. If I was writting that article, I'd be objective enough to say that a big question mark hung over the fact that Dempsey was unable to handle him over 4..

Tyson would't have fought any differently since he ALWAYS fought the first 5 or 6 rounds like they where the ONLY round.

Poet

[sonnyboyx2]

All of Dempsey's fights with Meehan were 4 round fights AND Meehan was the hometown fighter in all of them as well.

Poet

correct... in those days they never had ringside judges they had one ringside newspaper reporter and he was the one who gave the "Newspaper Decision" so it was most likely that it went to the local fighter.

[McGrain]

The earliest reference i've seen to Greb's calling out Jack is in 1918, before Dempsey was even champion. This was directly after one of Greb's wins over Battling Levinksy, who Greb would beat six (i think?) times out of six. Greb's challanged went unanswered and Dempsey matched Levinsky in Novemeber of that year, knocking him out in three - Greb wasn't boxing in Novemeber due to injury, but was busy again in January, Dempsey - deliberately or not - having by-passed Greb in favour of a fighter Greb had proven his superiority too and then treading water until his challange against Willard. Greb remained busy, never knowing what it meant for a fighter to rest on his laurels.

Greb's run at the HW title had begun with Willard in possesion of the title. In 1918 he had beaten Billy Miske, but it was 1919 that he would really stake his claim, against Bill Brennan, described by the Pittsburgh Post as "the best man in his class in the country[outside of Jack Dempsey]". The two met first in New York in Febuary - Greb was Brennan's total master, some papers scoring this fight a shut-out. Brennan apparantly was claiming that he was out of condition for this fight, and Greb being Greb, a re-match was granted. The Pittsburgh Post's headline for that fight: "Bill Brennan Beaten In Every Round". In spite of every concievable advantage in terms of size - height, reach and weight - Brennan was not in the fight, he was totally dominated.

The two met again 16 months before Dempsey would match Brennan for the HW title. Again, the fight was a one sided beating. The New York Times and the Washington Post both gave Greb "every single round". Frankly, it seems Brennan was not in Greb's class...but the title shot would go to Brennan.Brennan would tell journalist Paul Kennedy that "if Dempsey was fighting [Greb] instead of me, I would be on Greb" after his eventual fight with Jack.


It seems that there was work afoot to bring the two together almost as soon as Dempsey lifted his title, with promoters Jimmy Shelvin anbd Matt Hinkle both trying to land the fight. The Pittsburgh Post: "It is up to Dempsey. And it is going to be difficult for Dempsey to say "Go get a reputation for Greb's fought four fights to Dempsey's one, and licked as many, if not more HW's." The fight, of course, didn't come off. Instead, Greb would fight Miske, who Greb had already beaten a couple of times, including a fight that went 8-1-1 in Greb's favour according the Pittsburgh Post...is anyone finding this disturbing yet? Dempsey's decisions to match men that Greb has already crushed instead of Greb himself seems bizzare to me...


And it's not over yet. After apparently mastering Dempsey in sparring, Greb would crush Gibbons "manhandled him gleefully and semed to get a deal of satisfaction out of it", and he also did better against Meehan than Demspey did.


Miske, Brennan and Gibbons all get title shots


But no title fight for Greb.

Why not?



Greb was possibly a better HW than Dempsey, never mind a better fighter.

[Sugarj]

I voted Jack Dempsey, forget contemporary accounts, newspaper reports and debated decisions, there is good film of Dempsey. His skills can be judged to the naked eye and he was one powerful, fast, aggressive guy. His defense was pretty good too and some of his combination work was superb!

Sadly Greb has nothing other than a bit of training footage to his name........and frankly his sparring shows him to be alarmingly off balance and open. The man may well have been truely great..........his record certainly is.

But I personally feel happier judging a fighter on what I've seen of him in the ring.