How High do You rate Jack Johnson in your ATG heavyweight list?

[Jim Jeffries]

Hank. I am surprised to see that you consider what I have to offer to this thread spam. I posted a comment directed to you later on in the thread that was laced with facts about Jack Johnson and the fights that you mentioned as well as a name or two that you left out(for what ever reason, maybe you didn't realize how significant to the history of Boxing they were). I have awaited your return to this thread so that I could RESPECTFULLY engage you in a debate about Jack's accomplishments, but I see that you still offer nothing concrete to help your arguement.

Now I respect you as a human being, but I find it a little bit disheartening that you shot down MY feelings on MY ranking of Jack Johnson in the ATG HW conversation that is this thread, and refered to it as mere SPAM. I am a man of my word and told you that I would be checking this thread for your return, you have completely disappointed me with your responses thus far, and now YOU(my friend)are slipping as a respectable poster in MY view.

But I DO have faith in you Hank. And truely do await for you to contribute a post with some substance so that I can RESPECTFULLY engage you in an intelligent conversation about Jack Johnson and his place in Boxing history.

And since I have not seen you answer any of the questions that I have posed to you I will one up this discussion and answer you question about some of the top fighters that Jack has faced and defeated before he won the HW title:

Klon***e
Sam McVea
Sam Langford
Frank Childs
Denver Ed
Joe Jeanette
"Young" Peter Jackson
Claude Brooks
Bob Fitzsimmons
"Fireman" Jim Flynn
Jim Jeffords

The last fighter is a cookie for you, as Jim Jeffords greatest victory is over none other than the legendary Peter Jackson(you do know that even "The Boston Strong Boy" ducked Peter Jackson right????????).
Again I await your response; BUT do not disrespect me or posts again as I try my best to share my knowledge of Boxing respectfully and only ask that I recieve the same in return.

I asked for Jack Johnson's top 5 wins and you offer up an inactive, 44 year old Fitzsimmons as a response? Props to Johnson for avenging the Klon***e loss, but you don't seriously expect me to give him credit for beating a world class fighter, do you?

As for McVea and Jeanette, try as I may, these guys had 10 pro fights or less in all of their bouts with Johnson, hardly worth mentioning for a guy vying for the number 3 ATG HW spot. Surely you're kidding with the Jeffords response, and as for "Young" Peter Jackson, he was coming off a serious losing streak and was a WW/MW after all.

Maybe that's why I get such hatred when I ask questions about Johnson, there really doesn't seem to be much there. I am curious about his fight with Ketchel. On the one hand, people claim it was just an exhibition, as a way of excusing Jack being knocked down. But on the other hand, they demand credit for the win. People say Jack threw the fight against Willard, as an excuse for losing to such an inferior fighter, when surely the fact that Johnson was 37 at the time, would be excuse enough. And wouldn't proof of throwing fights hurt the reputation of a HOFer like Johnson?

[Chief2ndzOnly!]

I asked for Jack Johnson's top 5 wins and you offer up an inactive, 44 year old Fitzsimmons as a response? Props to Johnson for avenging the Klon***e loss, but you don't seriously expect me to give him credit for beating a world class fighter, do you?

As for McVea and Jeanette, try as I may, these guys had 10 pro fights or less in all of their bouts with Johnson, hardly worth mentioning for a guy vying for the number 3 ATG HW spot. Surely you're kidding with the Jeffords response, and as for "Young" Peter Jackson, he was coming off a serious losing streak and was a WW/MW after all.

Maybe that's why I get such hatred when I ask questions about Johnson, there really doesn't seem to be much there. I am curious about his fight with Ketchel. On the one hand, people claim it was just an exhibition, as a way of excusing Jack being knocked down. But on the other hand, they demand credit for the win. People say Jack threw the fight against Willard, as an excuse for losing to such an inferior fighter, when surely the fact that Johnson was 37 at the time, would be excuse enough. And wouldn't proof of throwing fights hurt the reputation of a HOFer like Johnson?

You are obviously not trying to understand the way fighters where moved along in the time period that we are discussing. But on to your points. Sam McVea had 8 pro contests before he fought Jack. Sam was an up and coming HW who had beaten a gatekeeper in Fred Russell, so his shot at Jack was warrented. Jeanette started his career off extremely rough his 1st 4 fights were against some of the best fighters at the time: Morris Harris(twice), Claude "Black Bill" Brooks, and Jack Johnson(That is how Boxers were groomed in those days, hell Jack Johnson fought "Utah" Bob in his 3rd fight......can we say thrown to the wolves?). As for Young Peter; he lost to Philidelphia Jack(he actually KO'd him but the ref took the victory from him), he went the distance with Sam Langford all three times and also with Larry Temple as well as doing these fights with in a span of 7-8 months(name me a fighter after this era that stood up to that type of "stiff" competition and remained competitive). Also staying with in the confines of your respective weight class was not a common practice of the time period. You fought the best out there no matter the weight class they where in(see Stanley Ketchel). As for Jeffords......no I'm not joking. Just because YOU dont know who he is does not erase his victory over "THE" Peter Jackson(not to be confused with "Young" Peter Jackson.

The Ketchel fight was a pre arranged fight. There were supposed to be NO knock downs and it was supposed to go the distance and be called a draw(not uncommon at that time). Well Stanley didn't stick to the script and dropped Jack. Jack promptly got up from the KD and flattened Ketchel knocking out a few teeth along the way. Jack and Stanley were friends and thats how the bout was brought into being in the 1st place. Jack and Stanley used to drink and run women together, so you can see why Jack was pissed after Stanley violated the agreement. As for the Willard fight, it is common knowledge that Jack asked to throw the fight so that he wouldn't face prosecution for the Mann Act violation, as his mother was moving along in age and he wanted to be able to see her. They agreed to drop the charges but they crawfished the deal and locked him up in Levenworth anyway. The reason for him throwing the fight is the reason why it's not looked down on. As for Bob Fitz, alot of his bouts that are listed on box rec(which doesn't mention his bout with Peter Felix 'The Peter Jackson's 1st cousin') were called exhibitons as Boxing was illegal in most states so you can take his career anyway you want to. I would hardly call Bob inactive as he fought one fight from '04 to '06 after coming off a nation wide take all on-comers tour with Jim Jeffries in '03. He may have not been Jack's age but men were built of a different stock in those days.

I don't hate(that would mean I could wish you dead, and I don't) you homie. I respect you as a man and a poster on this site. I just didn't appreciate my post being refered to as "spam" and felt I should let that **** be known. You aiight with me slick. I look forward to your response, as always.